continued from above
Since this was a Sunday and we had seen so much traffic on track at the last member day we aimed to get there around 11:30, hoping to get on track before the 12:30 lunch break. Which almost happened, but we got out on track at 12:30-1 pm and again in another session at 2:00-2:30 pm. Between Amy and I we made 23 hot laps this time, without any brake overheating issues. Now we still had brake problems, but that was all a rear lockup situation. That ABS was wigging out any time either of us braked over 1.0 g.
We saw accelerometer data of around 1.15g (both lateral and braking gs) but the rear tires would lock up quickly in stops over 1.0g, then the car tried to swap ends. Amy (a much smoother driver than me) saw the same issues, so we both had to dial back our braking considerably, especially when compared to other cars we have tracked in the past. Now we might have a sticky caliper piston, or some other mechanical issue - so we are preemptively changing ALL of the calipers and rotors in the next round of mods. I have felt Ice Mode / ABS issues on virtually every GM car I have ever driven on track, including multiple C4/5/6 Corvettes and 5th gen Camaros, so it might just be this issue.
The video above has more data channels from the CAN data stream, logged via the AiM Solo after I properly uploaded a new firmware versions specifically for the C6. Everything worked except the Steering Wheel Position Sensor. In fact this sensor often breaks on many C5 and C6 cars, so we think this happened - we got a "Service Active Handling" fault at both events. As always drove with both the traction control and active handling control systems turned off, as it is faster on virtually every OEM car than leaving the electronic nannies on.
We met our friend Jerry out at the track and I chased him for a bit in his C7 Z06, but he was several seconds a lap faster, so I didn't chase him long. It was supposed to rain all day but didn't, and the 63°F ambient temp was perfect. We even saw rainbows in the clouds.
This time we stuck around longer and drove in 2 different track sessions. My first stint was just 2 laps, to scrub the brand new tires and get them up to temp, and I quickly came in to let Amy bleed the tires down to 33F/31R hot. The understeer was still there but not as pronounced as on the 245/275 All Seasons. There was a LOT of traffic and I was one of the slower folks on track, so I had a lot of aborted fast laps to get out of people's way - and of course a few close calls where the rear tires locked into the big braking zones (T3 and T9 - see track map below). In my second stint in session 1 I made 5 laps and managed a 1:26.428. Then we swapped Amy in for 4 hot laps where I coached.
We had an hour to kill before our next session where we could go out and we relaxed a bit and Amy and I talked about her comfort level in the car. We made some seat position changes before going out again. Traffic was much lower in session 2 and I went out for an 8 lap stint, running two other 1.26.9 laps back to back. I had a high 1:25 lap on predictive timing while chasing Jerry's C7Z, but a 1.1g stop into T3 nearly sent me off track backwards, so I reset and went for one last blast the next lap - finding another couple of tenths with a 1:26.248 best.
Amy then went out next for a 5 lap stint where I didn't ride with her, and she had virtually zero traffic - which helped her get into a groove where she dropped TEN seconds from her best laps back on April 9th! She came in beaming, knowing that she was much faster this time. And more importantly, she had a lot of fun - which was the point of this C6 purchase: to get some track time while our other cars are being built and to have a ball doing it.
While the rear tire lock up issues were unnerving they were not completely unexpected. At least the G-LOC pads never got so hot that the fluid boiled and we never had a long pedal, always had good pad bite - but perhaps too much for this ABS systems. Not a huge problem, and if this persists after the next set of brake upgrades, we have another couple of ABS systems we can swap onto this car. Was hoping we could avoid that, we will see.
"INTERIM" WHEELS ORDERED (TWICE)
Remember the "one mistake" I mentioned in the 19x10 wheel and Hankook tire order we made after Track Test #1? Well it was the fact that I did NOT order black wheels, but that's what they sent. And I absolutely HATE black wheels - they disappear and you cannot see what they look like. Just a mass of black.
I mentioned this to my TR rep and he admitted the error, then sold me another set of these 19x10s in the correct silver color, above. Luckily these were still on closeout and again super inexpensive, plus at I got free shipping this time. I also found some TPMS sensors elsewhere and had the 275 Hankook tires swapped to these silver wheels after just that one event.
Not a great pic but it was raining all week and that's the best I have for now. Long term these will likely be the "street wheels" we use to drive around on, after these RS-4s have either worn out or heat cycled out. The "real" wheels we custom ordered 6 weeks ago are almost done, and those will be used exclusively for track/autocross use. More on that next time.
Meanwhile the ugly black wheels will now be getting a set of new Hoosier R7s, which I picked up for a song (old date codes, but stored inside and never mounted so they still have the mold release). The Hoosiers won't go on the car until we have the MCS coilovers on, and then we will test that setup with the 275 RS-4s first and the 295 Hoosiers on identical wheels on the same day. Just couldn't pass up this deal, and its more data in my long term 200TW vs R-compound tire lap comparison testing - which we did extensively for 2 seasons of NASA TT events in our 2018 Mustang in TT2 and TT3 (2018-2019).
LAP TIMES LIST RANKING AT MSR-C 1.7
Here is my "leader board" list for laps at Motorsport Ranch Cresson on their 1.7 mile CCW course, and the first two track tests on the C6 are shown ranked inside my videos/times for other cars I've driven here.
Love this track and have been coming here for 20 years. Their 1.7 mile course (see above) is relatively easy to learn, has a good mix of corners, and is short enough to not have a long out lap and in lap - making for more laps in a 30 minute session. This facility has had consistent paving from when they opened in 2000 until they repaved in 2021 - a month before the recent repave, NASA drivers were still setting new lap records on the "old" asphalt. Having driven before and after the repave, there is no significant change and lap times didn't change - not something you can say for most tracks over 2 plus decades of use.
We have used this course for setup and testing, and I personally have driven over 500 laps in many different cars here. With this much seat time at the same track I can drive fairly consistent laps, in the same conditions. In the past I have done as many as 15 track tests / competition weekends in a single year on this same 1.7 CCW configuration. MSR has 4 configurations: 1.7 CCW. 1.7 CW, 1.3 mile (see above) and the 3.1 mile layout (combines 1.7 and 1.3 together). We finally got a membership earlier in 2021 so we can do even more testing here. The only track I have more laps at is Eagles Canyon (above right), but they repaved recently and reconfigured (from 2.9 to 3.1 mile) about a year ago, so none of my old laps there are relevant to compare to for current testing. Plus their new 3.1 mile course is a bit long for a small number of laps driven in a given stint - with long out- and in-laps.
I keep this list updated of my best laps at this track in various cars I have driven, and put this list into most project build threads to show how a particular car is progressing, compared to other cars driven by the same driver - me. Why just my times? Well simply put it keeps the "driver variables" to a minimum.
I am not claiming to be a great driver by showing "my list" of laps only - far from it, I know I'm a hack - but I have driven 50+ cars at this track and have set 5 or 6 NASA Time Trial lap records here. As "terrible" of a driver as I may be, my laps here tend to be fairly consistent when the tires/brakes/traffic line up, often running multiple laps in a row in the same tenth of a second. That consistency can at least help show a progression of performance for a car over different rounds of modifications driven at different times, even if my times aren't the absolute best that a given car could theoretically do.
This list of laps shows a spread of times for a range of cars under similar conditions, with both 200TW and Hoosier race tires, as noted. Each time we add a new Track Test for this C6 I will add it in bold into this ranked lap time list:
PERFORMANCE ALIGNMENT
This is something we recommend for anyone to do to their car BEFORE they ever go do their first track event in any given car. The goal for most unmodified cars you want to autocross or track is to add as much negative camber the stock adjustment range allows - because the stock suspension will allow a LOT more body roll than one with a modified suspension. And excess roll allows the tires to wear abnormally fast on the outer shoulders. Adding static negative camber will mitigate this, of course.
The first autocross in our 2018 GT shredded the OEM tires. Look at that roll! With coilovers/springs/camber it wore the tires GREAT
We had intended to add a Performance Alignment to this C6 between Track Tests 1 and 2, to show that as part of the lap time progression. Why wait? I wanted the Baseline Stock track test to be the absolute "stockest of stock" for this base model C6, and also why we did that one with the all season tires and random brake pads (but with good brake fluid and oil - I'm not suicidal). As you can see (below left) the C6 had tons of body roll, even on low grip 245/275 all season tires.
Well timing didn't work out for this to happen until after Track Test #2. Since we moved our shop "out to the country" in 2018 we have been looking for a place nearby with a proper laser alignment rack. We don't own one of these $75-100K alignment racks and it's unlikely we will - because they would never pay for themselves. In our best months we had maybe 3-4 cars aligned using a partner shop (that little use would never pay the note on these machines). At our last shop location we had a nearby shop with a really nice alignment rack and we would take cars there with a list of measurements we wanted. After a while we had trained their crew to do performance alignments to our specs. I was "breaking in a new shop" the week before Track Test #2...
As a test for a new nearby shop, I had taken my shop truck (above) to check out their abilities on a state of the art alignment rig, and they did a great job. They do 10-12 alignments per day, but on the only open slot we had for the C6 (the day before Track Test #2) they were slammed and couldn't fit us in, so we did BOTH first tests on the crappy stock alignment. That hurt lap times, for sure.
Looking at the car in stock form (above) we could see that the alignment was as Plain Jane as the rest of the car - it never had a performance alignment, and this is likely as it came from GM sixteen years ago. After we finally got the car aligned we can see the "before" settings were pretty bad: -0.6°/-0.8° camber front and -0.4°/-.6° camber rear. Oof...
They hit the marks we set for them, but it took them longer to do than they expected. These Corvettes require a lot of shimming on the front suspension to get the camber set. At least track test #3 (later this week!) will have some proper camber, and that alone will help lap times. We will likely dial in more rear camber on the next alignment as well (there are two mods planned in the future that will require new alignments).
WHAT'S NEXT?
We have a LOT of things ordered for future rounds of modifications and subsequent track tests. If I have to go to the track once a week to test all of these, well darn, I guess I will do it!
Brad is in the middle of swapping all of the calipers and rotors for the larger (and different hydraulic piston sized) Z51 bits, shown above. Also the DeWitt radiator, new hoses, lower radiator support (old one is smashed), and more. We should be back on track later this week to see if this makes for any changes in Test # 3.
There are more planned upgrade parts already here or en route, but those will be for later rounds of mods. The MCS dampers coupled with real spring rates should make a substantial change in handling - and might even help with the rear brake locking situation (old dampers and springs allowing too much rear rise/brake dive?) We will see in the next track test if the Z51 rear caliper hydraulic changes help that situation. We can always "dumb down" the rear brakes by swapping in some really crap rear pads, too. Stay tuned for more!
Thanks for reading,
Terry @ Vorshlag
Since this was a Sunday and we had seen so much traffic on track at the last member day we aimed to get there around 11:30, hoping to get on track before the 12:30 lunch break. Which almost happened, but we got out on track at 12:30-1 pm and again in another session at 2:00-2:30 pm. Between Amy and I we made 23 hot laps this time, without any brake overheating issues. Now we still had brake problems, but that was all a rear lockup situation. That ABS was wigging out any time either of us braked over 1.0 g.
We saw accelerometer data of around 1.15g (both lateral and braking gs) but the rear tires would lock up quickly in stops over 1.0g, then the car tried to swap ends. Amy (a much smoother driver than me) saw the same issues, so we both had to dial back our braking considerably, especially when compared to other cars we have tracked in the past. Now we might have a sticky caliper piston, or some other mechanical issue - so we are preemptively changing ALL of the calipers and rotors in the next round of mods. I have felt Ice Mode / ABS issues on virtually every GM car I have ever driven on track, including multiple C4/5/6 Corvettes and 5th gen Camaros, so it might just be this issue.
The video above has more data channels from the CAN data stream, logged via the AiM Solo after I properly uploaded a new firmware versions specifically for the C6. Everything worked except the Steering Wheel Position Sensor. In fact this sensor often breaks on many C5 and C6 cars, so we think this happened - we got a "Service Active Handling" fault at both events. As always drove with both the traction control and active handling control systems turned off, as it is faster on virtually every OEM car than leaving the electronic nannies on.
We met our friend Jerry out at the track and I chased him for a bit in his C7 Z06, but he was several seconds a lap faster, so I didn't chase him long. It was supposed to rain all day but didn't, and the 63°F ambient temp was perfect. We even saw rainbows in the clouds.
This time we stuck around longer and drove in 2 different track sessions. My first stint was just 2 laps, to scrub the brand new tires and get them up to temp, and I quickly came in to let Amy bleed the tires down to 33F/31R hot. The understeer was still there but not as pronounced as on the 245/275 All Seasons. There was a LOT of traffic and I was one of the slower folks on track, so I had a lot of aborted fast laps to get out of people's way - and of course a few close calls where the rear tires locked into the big braking zones (T3 and T9 - see track map below). In my second stint in session 1 I made 5 laps and managed a 1:26.428. Then we swapped Amy in for 4 hot laps where I coached.
We had an hour to kill before our next session where we could go out and we relaxed a bit and Amy and I talked about her comfort level in the car. We made some seat position changes before going out again. Traffic was much lower in session 2 and I went out for an 8 lap stint, running two other 1.26.9 laps back to back. I had a high 1:25 lap on predictive timing while chasing Jerry's C7Z, but a 1.1g stop into T3 nearly sent me off track backwards, so I reset and went for one last blast the next lap - finding another couple of tenths with a 1:26.248 best.
Amy then went out next for a 5 lap stint where I didn't ride with her, and she had virtually zero traffic - which helped her get into a groove where she dropped TEN seconds from her best laps back on April 9th! She came in beaming, knowing that she was much faster this time. And more importantly, she had a lot of fun - which was the point of this C6 purchase: to get some track time while our other cars are being built and to have a ball doing it.
While the rear tire lock up issues were unnerving they were not completely unexpected. At least the G-LOC pads never got so hot that the fluid boiled and we never had a long pedal, always had good pad bite - but perhaps too much for this ABS systems. Not a huge problem, and if this persists after the next set of brake upgrades, we have another couple of ABS systems we can swap onto this car. Was hoping we could avoid that, we will see.
"INTERIM" WHEELS ORDERED (TWICE)
Remember the "one mistake" I mentioned in the 19x10 wheel and Hankook tire order we made after Track Test #1? Well it was the fact that I did NOT order black wheels, but that's what they sent. And I absolutely HATE black wheels - they disappear and you cannot see what they look like. Just a mass of black.
I mentioned this to my TR rep and he admitted the error, then sold me another set of these 19x10s in the correct silver color, above. Luckily these were still on closeout and again super inexpensive, plus at I got free shipping this time. I also found some TPMS sensors elsewhere and had the 275 Hankook tires swapped to these silver wheels after just that one event.
Not a great pic but it was raining all week and that's the best I have for now. Long term these will likely be the "street wheels" we use to drive around on, after these RS-4s have either worn out or heat cycled out. The "real" wheels we custom ordered 6 weeks ago are almost done, and those will be used exclusively for track/autocross use. More on that next time.
Meanwhile the ugly black wheels will now be getting a set of new Hoosier R7s, which I picked up for a song (old date codes, but stored inside and never mounted so they still have the mold release). The Hoosiers won't go on the car until we have the MCS coilovers on, and then we will test that setup with the 275 RS-4s first and the 295 Hoosiers on identical wheels on the same day. Just couldn't pass up this deal, and its more data in my long term 200TW vs R-compound tire lap comparison testing - which we did extensively for 2 seasons of NASA TT events in our 2018 Mustang in TT2 and TT3 (2018-2019).
LAP TIMES LIST RANKING AT MSR-C 1.7
Here is my "leader board" list for laps at Motorsport Ranch Cresson on their 1.7 mile CCW course, and the first two track tests on the C6 are shown ranked inside my videos/times for other cars I've driven here.
Love this track and have been coming here for 20 years. Their 1.7 mile course (see above) is relatively easy to learn, has a good mix of corners, and is short enough to not have a long out lap and in lap - making for more laps in a 30 minute session. This facility has had consistent paving from when they opened in 2000 until they repaved in 2021 - a month before the recent repave, NASA drivers were still setting new lap records on the "old" asphalt. Having driven before and after the repave, there is no significant change and lap times didn't change - not something you can say for most tracks over 2 plus decades of use.
We have used this course for setup and testing, and I personally have driven over 500 laps in many different cars here. With this much seat time at the same track I can drive fairly consistent laps, in the same conditions. In the past I have done as many as 15 track tests / competition weekends in a single year on this same 1.7 CCW configuration. MSR has 4 configurations: 1.7 CCW. 1.7 CW, 1.3 mile (see above) and the 3.1 mile layout (combines 1.7 and 1.3 together). We finally got a membership earlier in 2021 so we can do even more testing here. The only track I have more laps at is Eagles Canyon (above right), but they repaved recently and reconfigured (from 2.9 to 3.1 mile) about a year ago, so none of my old laps there are relevant to compare to for current testing. Plus their new 3.1 mile course is a bit long for a small number of laps driven in a given stint - with long out- and in-laps.
I keep this list updated of my best laps at this track in various cars I have driven, and put this list into most project build threads to show how a particular car is progressing, compared to other cars driven by the same driver - me. Why just my times? Well simply put it keeps the "driver variables" to a minimum.
I am not claiming to be a great driver by showing "my list" of laps only - far from it, I know I'm a hack - but I have driven 50+ cars at this track and have set 5 or 6 NASA Time Trial lap records here. As "terrible" of a driver as I may be, my laps here tend to be fairly consistent when the tires/brakes/traffic line up, often running multiple laps in a row in the same tenth of a second. That consistency can at least help show a progression of performance for a car over different rounds of modifications driven at different times, even if my times aren't the absolute best that a given car could theoretically do.
This list of laps shows a spread of times for a range of cars under similar conditions, with both 200TW and Hoosier race tires, as noted. Each time we add a new Track Test for this C6 I will add it in bold into this ranked lap time list:
- 2013 Scion FR-S, Baseline Stock Lap Time, 215mm tires (Test #1), 8/31/16: 1:31.90
- 2006 Corvette, Baseline Stock Lap Time, 245/275 all season tires (Test #1), 4/9/21: 1:28.743
- 2016 Focus RS, baseline stock laps, 235mm MPSS, 6/15/16: 1:27.40
- 2006 Corvette, G-LOC R12/R10 pads, 275 Hankook RS-4 tires (Test #2), 4/18/21: 1:26.248
- 2013 Scion FR-S, AST 5100s, camber, bars, BBK, "not fresh" 315mm Rival-S tires (Test #6), 8/25/18: 1:25.978
- 2001 BMW 330i, NASA TTD prepped, 216 whp, MCS coilovers, camber, 245 Hoosier R7, 3/12/17: 1:23.789
- 2016 Focus RS, coilovers and camber, 275mm RE-71R, (Test #4) 9/27/16: 1:23.658
- 2012 Corvette C6 Z06, Carbotech XP10/XP8 pads, 285/335 MPSS, perf alignment, 9/16/16: 1:22.63
- 2013 Camaro SS 1LE, 305 Hankook RS-3, Bilstein PSS, camber, seats, brake ducting, 430whp, 9/16/16: 1:22.56
- 1992 Corvette, NASA TTC prepped, LT1, 288 whp, stock shocks, Hyperco springs, 245 R7s, 3/13/16: 1:21.90
- 2017 Corvette Grand Sport, Z07 aero package, 285/335 MPSS, perf alignment, 9/16/16: 1:21.89
- 2018 Mustang GT, "sort of" TT3 prepped, 305 RE-71R street tires, 474 whp, 3/10/19: 1:20.348
- 2018 Mustang GT, "mostly" TT3 prepped, 315 Hoosier R7, 474 whp, 3/10/19: 1:19.2
- 2011 Mustang GT, NASA TT3 prepped, 335/345 Hoosier A7, 447 whp, aero, 3802 lbs, 3/9/14: 1:17.310
PERFORMANCE ALIGNMENT
This is something we recommend for anyone to do to their car BEFORE they ever go do their first track event in any given car. The goal for most unmodified cars you want to autocross or track is to add as much negative camber the stock adjustment range allows - because the stock suspension will allow a LOT more body roll than one with a modified suspension. And excess roll allows the tires to wear abnormally fast on the outer shoulders. Adding static negative camber will mitigate this, of course.
The first autocross in our 2018 GT shredded the OEM tires. Look at that roll! With coilovers/springs/camber it wore the tires GREAT
We had intended to add a Performance Alignment to this C6 between Track Tests 1 and 2, to show that as part of the lap time progression. Why wait? I wanted the Baseline Stock track test to be the absolute "stockest of stock" for this base model C6, and also why we did that one with the all season tires and random brake pads (but with good brake fluid and oil - I'm not suicidal). As you can see (below left) the C6 had tons of body roll, even on low grip 245/275 all season tires.
Well timing didn't work out for this to happen until after Track Test #2. Since we moved our shop "out to the country" in 2018 we have been looking for a place nearby with a proper laser alignment rack. We don't own one of these $75-100K alignment racks and it's unlikely we will - because they would never pay for themselves. In our best months we had maybe 3-4 cars aligned using a partner shop (that little use would never pay the note on these machines). At our last shop location we had a nearby shop with a really nice alignment rack and we would take cars there with a list of measurements we wanted. After a while we had trained their crew to do performance alignments to our specs. I was "breaking in a new shop" the week before Track Test #2...
As a test for a new nearby shop, I had taken my shop truck (above) to check out their abilities on a state of the art alignment rig, and they did a great job. They do 10-12 alignments per day, but on the only open slot we had for the C6 (the day before Track Test #2) they were slammed and couldn't fit us in, so we did BOTH first tests on the crappy stock alignment. That hurt lap times, for sure.
Looking at the car in stock form (above) we could see that the alignment was as Plain Jane as the rest of the car - it never had a performance alignment, and this is likely as it came from GM sixteen years ago. After we finally got the car aligned we can see the "before" settings were pretty bad: -0.6°/-0.8° camber front and -0.4°/-.6° camber rear. Oof...
They hit the marks we set for them, but it took them longer to do than they expected. These Corvettes require a lot of shimming on the front suspension to get the camber set. At least track test #3 (later this week!) will have some proper camber, and that alone will help lap times. We will likely dial in more rear camber on the next alignment as well (there are two mods planned in the future that will require new alignments).
WHAT'S NEXT?
We have a LOT of things ordered for future rounds of modifications and subsequent track tests. If I have to go to the track once a week to test all of these, well darn, I guess I will do it!
Brad is in the middle of swapping all of the calipers and rotors for the larger (and different hydraulic piston sized) Z51 bits, shown above. Also the DeWitt radiator, new hoses, lower radiator support (old one is smashed), and more. We should be back on track later this week to see if this makes for any changes in Test # 3.
There are more planned upgrade parts already here or en route, but those will be for later rounds of mods. The MCS dampers coupled with real spring rates should make a substantial change in handling - and might even help with the rear brake locking situation (old dampers and springs allowing too much rear rise/brake dive?) We will see in the next track test if the Z51 rear caliper hydraulic changes help that situation. We can always "dumb down" the rear brakes by swapping in some really crap rear pads, too. Stay tuned for more!
Thanks for reading,
Terry @ Vorshlag
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