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SCCA SW Divisional 3 - Houston GPP, July 19-20, 2008

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  • SCCA SW Divisional 3 - Houston GPP, July 19-20, 2008

    Pics! http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/gallery/5494045_aLVJi

    Still recovering from the 3 day weekend racing event in Houston. The SCCA Southwest Divisional event #3 was a real eye opener for us, and the E30's all new set-up was still "in the learning curve"...


    Left: The new E30 set-up includes lots of suspension bits and 225/50/16 tires. Right: A gaggle of fast STS Hondas


    Left: Terry overdriving the car. Right: Amy coaxing the most out of the little E30. The segment times showed where she outdrove me - it was all in the slaloms.

    Day one was pretty hot and humid and the competition was fierce. There were five or six strong STS competitors who had either won National Championships and/or trophied there before. Some well set-up Hondas there to compete against - a great comparison for the E30. Even some strong STS2 runners to compare against.

    Long story short - we got clobbered on Day 1, and Amy out drove me pretty handily (by 0.6 sec!?!). I was trying to drive this car like our E36 LS1 car and it wasn't working! Point and shoot doesn't work when you don't have much "shoot" to rely on. Inside rear wheelspin was pretty significant, at least to me, but Amy said it was much improved from before the 4300 rears. She's been racing it regularly whereas I haven't run it in 5-6 months.

    The biggest issue was poor steering feel. The tall and wide 225/50/16 was sliding around on the narrow 7" rim badly, and the much taller tire was hurting gearing more than we had hoped. What worked well at last weekend's road course sized BMWCCA event was killing us at this slower speed, slalom-centric SCCA Divisional course. It was a Nationals caliber course, too, with a great Roger Johnson design. The two giant slaloms dominated 2/3rds of the course, and the three sector times provided by the AXWare timing system showed that's where we were losing the most time - BMWs are supposed to excel in the slaloms!

    The slaloms were painful and the car was loose under heavy braking. We knew that the Bridgestones seemed to work better with more wheel width than other similar width tires, and the 7" wide wheels we have is not enough for their 225. I would want to get at least an 8" wide wheel for this 225 before we would use it again, but 7.5" is the max width allowed in the class (we cannot find any lightweight 16x7.5" options and I don't think it would be enough). Its no wonder why so many STS racers use the 195/50/15 Bridgestone on a 15x7" wheel, but I still think the 205/45/16 is a better choice for the E30.


    Left: Wayne Atkins STS Honda. Right: Todd Milstead's STS Civic.


    Day 2's set-up: Notice the shorter front wheels/tires (15")

    On Day 2 we swapped on the pair of 15x7s and 195/50/15 Bridgestones to the front that we brought with us "just in case". This was to try to cure some of the sloppiness out of the initial turn in and improve transitioning. I also made a number of shock and tire pressure adjustments based on Hanchey's phone support input. These changes worked a lot better, even with this "drag car" tire set-up (the tall/fat tires out back), but I wish we had brought all four of the 195s. The fat rear tires were still pretty mushy and it was tricky to keep it timed correctly in the long, asymmetric slaloms. I seemed to get the car pretty crossed up in braking still but Amy looked composed. We were both closer to the top STS class runners on Day 2 but still far enough back to give us some worry.

    The 225s are coming off the 16x7s today and the 205/45/16s are going back on for the remainder of the year. We'll keep all four of the 15's handy if the car needs more steering improvement.

    In the end Amy ended up 5th and I ended up nipping at her heels in 6th. She bested me both days, which was a bit of an ego crusher, but everyone that watched our runs said she looked on her game and I looked a bit "aggressive". OK, so I'll admit I'm not a good momentum driver. :stickoutt She and Hanchey are going to run the car at a BMWCCA event in a few weeks at the slicker TMS Bus Lot - we badly need Hancheys suspension tuning to help get the car closer to the Hondas (and I will gladly go back to racing the LS1 car, ha!) I think if we can keep Amy within 2 seconds of the fast STS guys she can do well in STS-Ladies at Nats, but we want the car to be much closer than that.

    We're trying to make up a 300-400 pound difference so we need as much tire as we can efficiently use, and we hope the 205s are enough. One STS Honda there weighed 1960 pounds last year at Nationals and the others at the Divisional were all around 2050. We're still stuck in the high 2300s in the E30, but the A/C is now coming out for sure and new mandrel bent exhaust parts and a cat + muffler are being ordered. We're not giving up without a fight! Oh, and the non-functional dash needs to be fixed. All gauges (except speedometer) mysteriously stopped working about 20 minutes of driving after we finished the clutch repairs last week - so we had no tach, temp gauge or fuel level at the event. There's always something to fix on an E30.

    More soon...
    Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com
    2018 GT / S550 Dev + 2013 FR-S / 86 Dev + 2011 GT / S197 Dev + C4 Corvette Dev
    EVO X Dev + 2007 Z06 / C6 Dev + BMW E46 Dev + C5 Corvette Dev

  • #2
    Re: SCCA SW Divisional 3 - Houston GPP, July 19-20, 2008

    Great write up! I'm really enjoying the build up of this car. I hate seeing a spec Honda STS class (funny cause I race in a spec RX-8 class )

    Here's my video from Saturday:
    Run 3 - Saturday

    My car setup was on the loose side, but I think it'll work well when the 285 Hoosiers show up next month.
    Last edited by Miatamoto; 07-22-2008, 12:04 PM.
    Thomas
    AST '04 S2000 (STR)
    '04 R32 with AST 4100s

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: SCCA SW Divisional 3 - Houston GPP, July 19-20, 2008

      So dialing in shocks couldn't get the car "close enough" with regard to transitional response? Was it so loose/sloppy/slow in response with the bigger tires that there was no way to drive around it?

      How were your lateral grip numbers when comparing big to little tire combos?

      Tommy
      Last edited by Tommy R; 07-22-2008, 03:18 PM.
      2001 Jeep Wrangler
      2001 Dodge 2500 Cummins

      BMW E36 DIY's:
      Front LCA Bushing Swap
      E36 Custom Cat Back
      M3 Limited Slip Diff Repair
      Diff Swap

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: SCCA SW Divisional 3 - Houston GPP, July 19-20, 2008

        I think you'll recall driving my Subaru in a similar situation.
        Brian Hanchey
        AST Suspension - USA

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: SCCA SW Divisional 3 - Houston GPP, July 19-20, 2008

          Curious to ask, would it not be wiser to run the smaller, more nimble tires to prepare for Nats? It appears Nats is about being right on the cones when HP is not available. As well, the smaller tire should heat up faster since it probably won't be 100+ degrees in Topeka.

          Glad to see you guys make the trip and I hope it was worth it!!

          Turbo

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: SCCA SW Divisional 3 - Houston GPP, July 19-20, 2008

            Good Job Amy

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: SCCA SW Divisional 3 - Houston GPP, July 19-20, 2008

              Originally posted by turbotoddie
              Curious to ask, would it not be wiser to run the smaller, more nimble tires to prepare for Nats? It appears Nats is about being right on the cones when HP is not available. As well, the smaller tire should heat up faster since it probably won't be 100+ degrees in Topeka.

              Glad to see you guys make the trip and I hope it was worth it!!

              Turbo
              I made that argument months ago, but Fair wanted to try "bigger is better". The car wasn't going fast enough with the small tires so it was worth a shot. Especially when your star driver is sponsored by Bridgestone.
              Brian Hanchey
              AST Suspension - USA

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: SCCA SW Divisional 3 - Houston GPP, July 19-20, 2008

                I would have bought into the bigger is better camp too. They subscribe to that idea even in the GRM testings. I am wondering is a similarly wide tire with a lower profile would work to the car's advantage.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: SCCA SW Divisional 3 - Houston GPP, July 19-20, 2008

                  Results

                  PAX

                  Thanks again for the great Divisional Series Todd!

                  In the E30's defense, if you look at the Pax results, the STS Civics drivers were ON! Hollis, if he had't been hung-over probably would have finished first in class and in Pax. The course must have favored their cars.

                  I'd also like to see the E30 on the dyno to see what kind of power that high mileage motor is putting down. I know you are already having a wheel spin issue, but one of the keys behind running that car to make up for it's heavier weight was it's higher hp rating. If it's down on power from where it should be, that can't be helping you as well.
                  Last edited by McCall; 07-23-2008, 10:28 AM.
                  McCall

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                  • #10
                    Re: SCCA SW Divisional 3 - Houston GPP, July 19-20, 2008

                    The cat has definitely got to go. I think it is original!
                    Brian Hanchey
                    AST Suspension - USA

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: SCCA SW Divisional 3 - Houston GPP, July 19-20, 2008

                      Especially when your star driver is sponsored by Bridgestone.


                      You guys suck! BTW, I would agree with the bigger tire if Nats was on concrete but I am not sure for HPT.

                      turbo

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: SCCA SW Divisional 3 - Houston GPP, July 19-20, 2008

                        Originally posted by turbotoddie
                        Especially when your star driver is sponsored by Bridgestone.


                        You guys suck! BTW, I would agree with the bigger tire if Nats was on concrete but I am not sure for HPT.

                        turbo
                        Agreed. Just mounted the 205's back onto the 16x7" wheels. Take a look at the difference in the mounted heights on the E30's 16" tires below.



                        So it looks like we're giving up 3.5" in tire width per axle!


                        The 235mm Star Specs (for Matt's GTI/STX car) are narrower than the 225 Bridgestones

                        Granted the Bridgestone 225s weren't mounted, but they measured pretty wide when they were on these 7" wheels. If they had been on the class limit 7.5" wheels they might have worked enough better to warrant the extra height and sloppiness - that would have been a $2000 experiment (CCWs). I still think they need an 8" wide wheel to have good steering feel - which is of course not allowed.
                        Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com
                        2018 GT / S550 Dev + 2013 FR-S / 86 Dev + 2011 GT / S197 Dev + C4 Corvette Dev
                        EVO X Dev + 2007 Z06 / C6 Dev + BMW E46 Dev + C5 Corvette Dev

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: SCCA SW Divisional 3 - Houston GPP, July 19-20, 2008

                          Well, the Subaru had other handling issues as I recall.

                          Y'all still haven't answered my questions. What were the lateral grip numbers for the big vs. small tires? I'm guessing the largers generated more grip and, if so, with all the damper adjustment the car has you should be able to get it to respond "quickly enough" to deal with the inherent sloppiness of the wider/bulgier tire on the 7" wheel.

                          Gearing, of course, could be an issue, but that's another issue. I'm just referring to cornering.

                          Tommy
                          2001 Jeep Wrangler
                          2001 Dodge 2500 Cummins

                          BMW E36 DIY's:
                          Front LCA Bushing Swap
                          E36 Custom Cat Back
                          M3 Limited Slip Diff Repair
                          Diff Swap

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: SCCA SW Divisional 3 - Houston GPP, July 19-20, 2008

                            No cigarette lighter in 318is I think.
                            Brian Hanchey
                            AST Suspension - USA

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: SCCA SW Divisional 3 - Houston GPP, July 19-20, 2008

                              Oh, so no power for data acquisition? Well fix that, boys!!
                              2001 Jeep Wrangler
                              2001 Dodge 2500 Cummins

                              BMW E36 DIY's:
                              Front LCA Bushing Swap
                              E36 Custom Cat Back
                              M3 Limited Slip Diff Repair
                              Diff Swap

                              Comment

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