Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

[PianoProdigy]

Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

I am 99% buying an E46 already swapped with an F1-Procharged SBC running a built 700R4 and a stock 323ci rear (eek). I am obviously EXTREMELY interested in an upgraded rear and subframe of some sort whether it is a Ford 8.8" or something else heavy duty that can take high 3-digit rwhp launches on a drag radial or a slick.

What could be the realistic time frame on the development of a full bolt-in solution? Willing to put money down to get the ball rolling as a priority. Feel free to e-mail me separately to keep from cluttering this thread PianoProdigy@gmail.com if you wish.

So that 99% went to 100%. Car will be here Monday. Thoughts?

[PianoProdigy]

Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

The BMW tax is fairly brutal on some of these items, and in the end it might be better to make a new subframe to mount the 8.8" aluminum IRS center onto, with custom halfshafts to fit the E46.

I am 99% buying an E46 already swapped with an F1-Procharged SBC running a built 700R4 and a stock 323ci rear (eek). I am obviously EXTREMELY interested in an upgraded rear and subframe of some sort whether it is a Ford 8.8" or something else heavy duty that can take high 3-digit rwhp launches on a drag radial or a slick.

What could be the realistic time frame on the development of a full bolt-in solution? Willing to put money down to get the ball rolling as a priority. Feel free to e-mail me separately to keep from cluttering this thread PianoProdigy@gmail.com if you wish.

[Tennessee Steinmetz]

Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Here is a gentleman in Germany that is devoted to hacking the I-BUS (which is the onboard entertainment network)...which is linked in a roundabout way to the CAN-BUS network via the IKE(???).

http://www.reslers.de/index.html

If they (the now defunct openbmw.org have been able to dissect...of which Herr Resler was a member) can figure out traffic on this BUS (which has packet structure with no distinct beginning or end...odd) and introduce packets/capture packets in the stream with out incident...and have it work, maybe it is worth contacting him about CAN-BUS interpolation? They may have tried communicating with the rest of the systems in trying to understand the I-BUS.

If he doesn't have knowledge of the CAN-BUS network for the "engine" side of things, maybe he knows someone that does? Just a thought...found the reading on some of this to be kinda interesting... But I do like to nerd out once in a while.


Also, does anyone have a link to a good technical write-up that describes DSC, what inputs it looks at, how it handles the info, and what it does with it to try and control the car? Does it apply braking to one/two/all wheels in a skid? Does it blip the throttle in an oversteer situation to bring the rear end back in? Does it cut the throttle back to limit horsepower in a low traction situation or does it cut fuel? Trying to understand this system to see what the possible ramifications might be in running two ECU's in parallel if the problem of running one can not be elegantly solved. Will DSC have to be "greyed-out" since the BMW DME is not able to control the new engine...or does it just have to control the throttle (which I think could be done without too much hassle...but I will need to research that one a little further...)?

I will now crawl back under my regularly scheduled rock.

[E46_LSLQ]

Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Terry,

Thanks for reminding me... I'd almost put the pain of buying that M3 Diff-and-hardware behind me. I think they are carved from pure crystal unobtanium beneath a monastery between Munich and Salzburg. It's too bad, in the 3-series over the years BMW has offered up a lot of different ratios for their diffs... but only a handful that seem capable of handling lots and lots of power.

So, second that thought! A Ford 8.8 would be a wonderful alternative, especially as we're in a different range of gearing with some of these GM powerplants and gearboxes. I really, really like the 0.50 overdrive of the T-56, but to make best use of the powerband it would be nice to have the choice of ratios the 8.8 provides.

Have you thought about the radiator much? I've never gone back to try the stock one after we'd installed the M3 3-row radiator... but I think our cooling grief was as much about airflow and fan sizing as it was radiator capacity. I think the fan we finally used is well over 30A... another benefit of using a GM stock 145A truck alternator!

Please keep us posted!

Tom

[wolrah]

Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

As a former owner of a number of vehicles with Ford 8.8s, I'm entirely behind that idea. Those things are indestructible. Anything that holds up to me having too much fun with the happy pedal in vehicles as heavy as the Crown Vic and Thunderbird has to be plenty strong for these purposes.

Also, eliminating the BMW tax and avoiding the M tax on a major drivetrain component would be wonderful. I'm sure everyone who looks in to LSDs for E46s would be interested, V8 swap or not, if it can be done at a price competitive with the M3 rearend conversion.

[Fair!]

Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Tom

Thanks for sharing! Very good stuff there. That sounds a lot like how we're going so far, other than the oil pan we used.



I'm still tempted to try the non-M E46 "medium case" 188mm diff housing, but making one of these into an LSD ($2500-ish with a good diff) will cost more than buying a used 210mm E46 M3 diff ($750 or so). Problem is the E46 M3 diff has a unique subframe halfshafts, and all of the rest. So we're back to buying a pull-out subframe assembly brake to brake ($1500-2000-ish).



We'll do some looking and see if its worth doing this or... swapping in a Ford 8.8" aluminum IRS housing. That gives us a more affordable, stronger, lighter, differential housing with a near infinite number of gear ratios to choose from ($180/set for Ford Motorsport gear sets) and anything from stock clutch-type differentials to Wavetrac, Eaton, Torson, and more.



We'll so some looking for M3 assembly pullouts, run the numbers and see which option is the most affordable and has best gearing and differential options. The BMW tax is fairly brutal on some of these items, and in the end it might be better to make a new subframe to mount the 8.8" aluminum IRS center onto, with custom halfshafts to fit the E46.

Thanks again for your input!

[E46_LSLQ]

Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Terry,

The car's looking great. I'm really interested in the headers when you finish things up.

I'm sorry to be out of touch. We'd talked online when you were just completing the E36 LS1-- I'd followed that on the website a lot.

We did complete our 6.0L E46 wagon a little over a year ago. Motor's installed in a 323iT "Sport Touring" wagon-- I've always loved "sleeper" grocery-getters, so this one looks very vanilla, until you hear the exhaust when it fires up. We started with an LQ4 bottom end and installed '243 LS6 heads, Comp .568/.566 112LSA cam and Weiand Lingenfelter LS6 intake. PCM is the stock "Red/Blue" LS1/6 computer, but re-programmed for this cam set-up.

Issues we ran into:
1) For 'fit' reasons we concluded that the late-GTO pan, forward sump, was our best bet. I think we are mounted a hair forward from what your pics show. Using the T56, we ended up with the F-Body (rear) shifter location and it pops up in the exact right spot in the BMW. We did select our 323iT for already having a manual 5-speed in it-- -saved grief with clutch, master considerations.
2) We are running BOTH BMW computer (to keep CAN bus and gauges happy) and GM PCM (to run the engine and present an ODB-II port). ODB-II works great that way and would scan without Readiness or Error codes were we to have emissions testing here.
3) We used the M3 LSD diff to be on the safe side. I like the ratios a lot for this application-- loafs on the freeway, but still short enough to work with the T56's F-Body gearing
4) Cam has a nice lope, but will idle at 950. It pulls hard to redline at 6800, where we cut fuel off
5) Biggest issue we ran into was "cooling"--- We ended up buying the E46-M3 radiator, which is a drop-in. But, still had issues with airflow. Due to hood sealing, airflow is very constrained with the stock fan. We finally wired in a monster electric fan, which will keep heat in check even on a 120 day.

Net is that we really like the combination-- It was built to your #2 objective-- a daily driver that can be taken to the track.

Anyway, I stumbled back across your 330Ci thread and wanted to check back in. No threadjack here, but wanted to offer any thoughts on stuff we ran into. Would love to install your E46 headers when you get them wrapped up-- I'm sure we are power-limited (410-ish currently) by exhaust flow right now. We have Magnaflows on it, but did a custom hack on the manifolds. Long tubes would help a lot.

Best regards,
Tom

[Fair!]

Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Any update!? You guys are killing me! I plan on getting a 330ci by spring and doing the same thing. I currently have a 88' S10 Pickup LS1 swapped and I totally drooled when I found Vorshlag! Keep up the great work guys.

-Sincerely,
Nick
Future Customer

Ha! You've got good timing. The E46 Alpha is being worked on right now at Vorshlag, and goes back up on a lift tomorrow for header collector completion. Then we're testing a bunch of newer OEM LSx exhaust manifolds in the car that a customer in California sent us to try (for CARB approved swaps - but don't get your hops up).

We've just had another batch of ten sets of E36 LSx headers built this past week so that means the E46 prototype headers are about to go into production verification. Lots has gone on since the last update - a couple more days from now and we'll post up some more pictures and details.

Thanks!

[xmbreezy]

Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Any update!? You guys are killing me! I plan on getting a 330ci by spring and doing the same thing. I currently have a 88' S10 Pickup LS1 swapped and I totally drooled when I found Vorshlag! Keep up the great work guys.

-Sincerely,
Nick
Future Customer

[GaryK]

Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Thanks for the update Terry. I'm sooo wanting to build an LS1 BMW right now. I think I finally found a good E36 for the swap, but I'm starting to think maybe I should do an E46 instead.

[Fair!]

Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

They aren't going to give this any priority until someone starts paying them.

Nah, its not like that at all.

Oiy, lemmie show you what we've done since the last update. I've been trying to make time to crop and edit these pics and do an update here for this car for the last 2-3 weeks.

I will skip starting the 3 day holiday weekend and miss dinner with my wife tonight just to give you guys an update on the E46 LS1. Gosh!













There, is anyone appeased?

We're actually further along than these pics show - these were snapped from 1-2 weeks ago. I need a full time "web update guy" to give me some back-up. We've been super busy, and I haven't had a lot of time to update all of our project threads. I've got 9 or 10 active project build threads going at once now and I'm juggling them on close to a dozen forums, and its all I can do to keep my other daily Vorshlag duties here up to date. I have one of my employees now tasked to try to take up the slack for my slow updates, so don't worry. As we continue to grow I will keep hiring more people to keep the "active on the internet" aspect of our business... active.

So where were we - oh yea, the passenger LSx header prototype is done and fully TIG welded at each joint (looks better than the picture above, as it has that missing bend added). Driver's side header... (lemmie go back in the shop and peek)... OK, it looks like it is 3/4 complete, in steel. The plastic mock-up is done, and clearances checked. We ran out short of 1-3/4" mandrel bends for that header on Monday, but Matt ordered more. With the holiday shipping mess they were probably delayed getting here. Thought they'd be here today... oh wait... OK I just walked around the entire warehouse area and shop again and I think the box with those bends did get here today. The guys in the shop were too busy doing a motor swap today to attack the rest of the driver's header. We were hit with several E36 LS1 orders this week and just shipped out 3 kits today, including some internationally, after a big batch of E36 parts came in from powder coat. Its just nuts around here right now, sorry guys. Plus we've got a ton of racing going on, and suspension development, and shock and camber plate sales.

Vorshlag is open all next week except Monday, and my super awesome fab guy Ryan that I hired back in October is working all week on the other header and then the collectors and other bits. There have been all sorts of things going back onto that E36 that were missing when we bought it, to try to make it a fully functional street car when its done. I've also picked up a good LS1 5.7L aluminum longblock block to have re/built up, and have a 6-spd for it, too.

We're moving right along on the E46 Alpha, considering the volume of new projects, turn-key LS1 swaps, and customer fabrication work I've thrown at my technicians and fab guy at our new shop.

Patience...

[Fair!]

Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - BMW 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Project Update for Nov 4, 2011: We are one step closer to building the ultimate BMW E46 V8! Just a quick update, but it is an important milestone. In the week since my last update the guys in our shop have been working on the E46 Alpha car, between other projects. They have finished the motor mounts, with everything fully TIG welded by our fabricator Ryan, and the LS1/T56 drivetrain is securely in position.



The left picture above was pretty cool - we didn't stage that, I just looked up and noticed... "hmmm, that's 3 generations of BMWs with Vorshlag LS1 swaps lined up there". And in that same picture there's an E36 LS1 swap underway (black 1995 M3), and behind the Z3 is another E36 LS1 swap about to be kicked off (1992 325is). So we have... 5 LS1 swaps built or on-going in our shop at the moment. Kinda crazy.



Look how low that aluminum LS1 block sits in the chassis! And with 6 of the 8 cylinders located behind the front axle centerline, that's good for lower CG and better fore:aft weight balance than the long & tall straight BMW 6. That gave me an idea, and I took these pictures to show how different the LS1 motor length and installed location is compared to the stock M54 motor:



And fore:aft location of other Vorshlag V8 swaps, the E30 and E36/Z3 (can you see why I'm not a fan of E30 LS1 swaps?):



Its not easy to measure the Center of Gravity of a motor in a chassis, but in these two front shots you can see the outline of the heavy cast aluminum block/heads (ignoring the plastic intake manifolds and covers) of the LS1 and he M54 in the E46 chassis, and it gives you an idea of which drivetrain has the higher CG (M54):



Here are some close-ups of the motor mounts, which are easier to see with the heads off:



Once the prototype headers and driveshaft are finalized we will go back and make production fixtures for the finished motor mounts and trans crossmember, then we can start making those in production batches. The plan is to be at that point by December, unless the shop gets buried in customer fab/race prep/suspension work.

We located another LS1 starter to use for mock-up yesterday, and Ryan will attack the header fabrication next. There is one piece of tack-welded sheet metal on the driver's side (that forms the base of a heat shield around the ABS module) that will have to be removed to clear the full length headers, but we will make a new heat shield to go back in its place. We are NOT removing or relocating the ABS or brake booster components. Most of the handful of completed E46 LS1 swaps I've seen do away with the ABS completely, which I feel is a huge mistake, and detracts from one of the best parts of the BMW E46.



The E46 LS1 prototype full-length header construction will be a huge amount of fabrication work, but it always is painful on that first set. This is where our economies of scale come in: Since we plan to make these headers and kits in quantities more than 1, the typical high cost for one-off custom headers and mounts won't hit our E46 LS1 swap kit customers in the wallet.

We have all of the bends/collectors/flanges/supplies on-hand and I'll show an update as the prototype headers are coming together. Remember - we don't work on this car every day, but I am scheduling more fab time on it as we get freed up from other customer jobs. Once we have one set of headers built, they will be sent off to our header manufacturer for volume production.

More soon!

[Fair!]

Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Glad to see the project's still moving along. If I still have my E46 when/if a kit makes it to market, you'll probably have a customer as the M54B25 doesn't really have much in the way of upgrade options. Like those above, I'd like the end result to remain usable on the street, but being a little rough around the edges is just fine.

My big concern would be passing emissions. On paper at least in most states that aren't California I think it should be as simple as making sure the GM ECU is happy and has an accessible OBD2 port (either add another one or disconnect the BMW side from the one that's there). The BMW ECU could then be used simply to drive the gauges, I think.

I think the engine and ECU also have to be the same model year or newer than the car, but that's not necessarily something that would concern the kit, just something a swapper would have to keep in mind.

We are building the Alpha car with your same concerns - a streetable car that will pass emissions/SMOG check/basic OBDII functionality, but possibly a little stronger camshaft and other settings.

[wolrah]

Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Glad to see the project's still moving along. If I still have my E46 when/if a kit makes it to market, you'll probably have a customer as the M54B25 doesn't really have much in the way of upgrade options. Like those above, I'd like the end result to remain usable on the street, but being a little rough around the edges is just fine.

My big concern would be passing emissions. On paper at least in most states that aren't California I think it should be as simple as making sure the GM ECU is happy and has an accessible OBD2 port (either add another one or disconnect the BMW side from the one that's there). The BMW ECU could then be used simply to drive the gauges, I think.

I think the engine and ECU also have to be the same model year or newer than the car, but that's not necessarily something that would concern the kit, just something a swapper would have to keep in mind.

[Fair!]

Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Project Update for Oct 25, 2011: It has been a busy month since we brought the white E46 Alpha car over to the new shop. We took the E30 V8 to Florida and won the $2011 GRM Challenge, which was pretty cool. Now that we are back, and after bringing 7 cars to the new shop and getting a lift installed, we are wrenching on two neglected E46s. First up was my blue 2001 E46 330Ci that we ran last year in NASA "TTD" class. It got a new 2005 M54 3.0L longblock, a brand new OEM balancer (long story!), and finally is driving around, logging some street miles before it goes back on track.



The white 2001 BMW 330Ci "E46 Alpha" was also worked on last week, and I'll share that little step forward here. We had a customer asking us to make one of our Vorshlag, collapsible, racing U-joint steering shaft assemblies for the E46 chassis, to go with our existing E30, Z3 and E36 offerings. So we used the white 2001 as the guinea pig, since it needed one with the V8 for better header clearance. It took a few hours to make the first prototype and its on the car and working well.



Now that we've got a full time welder/fabricator that joined us a month ago, plus our other mechanic on staff, we're beginning to build turn-key LSx BMWs - two E36 builds are already underway. We will also continue development on the E46 Alpha car, and the prototype headers and motor mounts will be finished soon.



We've since added this Vorshlag E46 steering shaft as a new product on our website and have sold one to an E46 track user. No more sloppy rag joint in the steering shaft, its all good.

Stay tuned to this thread for more updates as we attack the V8 swap development, run across other systems we can upgrade or make parts for, or otherwise do any significant wrenching on this V8 prototype.

Thanks,