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**Paul** · 07-18-2005, 09:12 AM

Re: SCCA event #5 results

Terry and I ran into a problem yesterday with the car not rotating for crap and showing a nasty mid-corner push.�* I have run my car many times at Penington and it rotated just fine without the mid-corner push problem.�* I figured it was the fresh tires and the increased heat that was causing the problem.�* Last night I went back and read my cheat sheet and discovered what happened.�*

Dial-in Cheat Sheet
by Mark Daddio

<edited for related topics>

Corner Entry Condition: Understeer
1- Soften front shocks (rebound) and/or stiggen rear shocks (rebound) option not available for my car at this time
2- Lower rear tire pressure.
3- Toe out front end. (However, make sure there is not too much toe out already, as this will cause a mid-corner push to develop).�* BINGO!!, I set my toe out twice as much what I normally do, so I screwed myself.
4- If rear toe is an option... it is very difficult to change on my car and would require that same setting on the street, I think tire wear would be affected

Mid-Corner Condition: Understeer
1- If the understeer is caused by a lack of negative camber in the front, a larger front sway bar can help the situation to a point.�* Try a swaybar change if you have a limited camber adjustment or pyrometer tests show you need mode negative camber and you cannot get any more.�* This is a trail and error.�* Usually one change will tell you which way to go.
2- If rear toe is an option...�* it is very difficult to change on my car and would require that same setting on the street, I think tire wear would be affected
3- Lower front tire pressure or raise rear tire pressure.

Hind sight being what it is, I think I created the problem by increasing my front toe at the event more than I normally do (twice as much).�* I also felt the problem wasn't turn-in but a mid-corner push and difficulty to rotate the car at slower speeds.�* The fast back left hand sweeper was not problem at all I thought.�* But all the slower stuff was hideous.�*

I am sure Terry will have his own observations.�* As another set of eyes (or butt dyno in this case) always helps, please post them here.

**hancheyb** · 07-18-2005, 09:43 AM

Re: SCCA event #5 results

All I know is you guys shouldn't never let Henry Lin beat you. :evil:

C3 · 07-18-2005, 09:55 AM

Re: SCCA event #5 results

And the quickest BHoT member award goes tooooo.... Me

C3 · 07-18-2005, 09:58 AM

Re: SCCA event #5 results

The fast left hand sweeper was also off camber - that helps the car feel loose

**Paul** · 07-18-2005, 10:04 AM

Re: SCCA event #5 results

Originally posted by hancheyb

All I know is you guys shouldn't never let Henry Lin beat you.�* �*:evil:

Not arguing that. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile.

Well, next week I can put the car back to what it used to be and see if that doesn't fix the problem. I do want Terry to chime in and confirm or correct my observation that we had a mid-corner push and not a corner entry push problem. Considering the car slalomed fine I am pretty sure it was just a mid-corner issue.

**hancheyb** · 07-18-2005, 10:07 AM

Re: SCCA event #5 results

You have a car with 60% of the weight on the front wheels. It is going to plow in steady state (mid corners). Just slow down.

**instigator** · 07-18-2005, 10:08 AM

Re: SCCA event #5 results

Originally posted by hancheyb

All I know is you guys shouldn't never let Henry Lin beat you. :evil:

Or Gabby.

**Fair!** · 07-18-2005, 10:09 AM

Re: SCCA event #5 results

Wow... I guess I got a cone on my best run - think it was in the slalom. �*Oh well, it was my only run in the car without JACKED UP tire pressure settings. �*

�*So, yes, we suck. We let a bunch of NDAs punk us (STU class is weak here). Those guys are all HELLA BAD. The shame.

Sipe was the one to compare to (STU = BS pax) and he was 3+ seconds faster (raw). �*Wow... gotta do a lot more but the car should run with BStock, or better.

Suggestions:

1. Tire pressures. �*Don't shoot yourself in the foot and run ass-backwards pressure differential. �*Start at 45F, 30R and lower both as needed. �*If we had started there on run 1 instead of run 3, who knows. Like I kept saying, the car had a LOT of time left in it -�*at least 2 seconds.
2. CAMBER. �*Slot, grind, cheat to get -3.5 to -4 degrees up front. �*The car has PIG PIG PIG plow. �*Camber would really get it going. �*Slot, slot, slot.
3. Adjustable Shocks. �*Maybe expensive, but should be in the plans if you want to keep racing this car.
4. Power - don't waste one cent on any power mods until you've addressed those three items above. Car has ample power, but big handling deficiencies that should take priority.

Don't fool yourself into thinking "the car rotates well" in it's current form or ever has - it doesn't remotely approach the turn-in of say... Hanchey's car. �*It won't ever be neutral, because it has 60% of the weight on the front. �*If you run extreme camber up front and a lot of F-R differential, then looser front shocks (adj), it might get "better". �*

I don't care what the skidpad numbers told you or bell curves or any of that - the car is essentially a FWD car (with that massive front weight bias) and you need to get extreme with the settings to compensate. �*ALWAYS run full rear diff bias. �*ALWAYS run big F-to-R pressure boas. �*ALWAYS run hella camber up front.

Just my $.02. �* :-D

**Fair!** · 07-18-2005, 10:24 AM

Re: SCCA event #5 results

Originally posted by Paul

Well, next week I can put the car back to what it used to be and see if that doesn't fix the problem.�* I do want Terry to chime in and confirm or correct my observation that we had a mid-corner push and not a corner entry push problem.�* Considering the car slalomed fine I am pretty sure it was just a mid-corner issue.

You're getting way too technical again... the car had an "all the way through the corner" push.�* �*:-D�* It pushed in the slaloms, it really pushed in the corners, it just plain pushed everywhere.�* Watching from the outside it was readily apparent (ask Weiss, Cody, etc).�* Only place it was approaching neutral was in the big off camber left hander that Cody mentioned.�* If it was my car, I'd have been working the handbrake, rally style.

And all of the other STi's had painful pushes yesterday, as well.�* I don't think these guys know anything but "various extremes of understeer".

If by "going back to the way it was" includes the jacked up tire pressure settings you usually run (39psi front, 45 psi rear!?)... did I mention that I have a sock drawer to sort next weekend?�* �*

�*

Spraying water between runs onto these street compound tires too cool them down is goofy.�* No, they don't get that hot - the day the start to pick up rocks, then they'll be "warm".�* They never approached "too hot".�* Also, too much toe out will cause the front tires to fight each other and worsen understeer.�* Does the front end geometry have any Akerman?

Just my $.04.

**instigator** · 07-18-2005, 10:25 AM

Re: SCCA event #5 results

Originally posted by Fair!

ALWAYS run full rear diff bias.

Thank you! I never could see how leaving the center diff on auto could be good. And remember that "rotates well" on these cars is always a relative term. My car still pushes like crazy, but it is so much better than stock, that it seems really good.

**Fair!** · 07-18-2005, 10:29 AM

Re: SCCA event #5 results

Originally posted by instigator

Thank you! I never could see how leaving the center diff on auto could be good. And remember that "rotates well" on these cars is always a relative term. My car still pushes like crazy, but it is so much better than stock, that it seems really good.

That's what I'm talking about Paul... Jeremy gets it.�* These cars push push push, but you can reduce it somewhat with the right set-up.

If Lin told you something, do the opposite.�* If Gabby told you to run a setting a certain way, do the opposite.�* These guys are bad, bad, clueless bad.�* Remember: at SCCA events, they are 3-4+ seconds off of B Stock.

C3 · 07-18-2005, 12:50 PM

Re: SCCA event #5 results

These results are all hosed - they only added 1 sec per cone. WTF?

http://autocross.com/tr/tr505.shtml

**Paul** · 07-18-2005, 01:11 PM

Re: SCCA event #5 results

Originally posted by C3

These results are all hosed - they only added 1 sec per cone.�* WTF?

http://autocross.com/tr/tr505.shtml

Guess I beat Henry afterall.

**Paul** · 07-18-2005, 02:00 PM

Re: SCCA event #5 results

Originally posted by Fair!

Sipe was the one to compare to (STU = BS pax) and he was 3+ seconds faster (raw). �*Wow... gotta do a lot more but the car should run with BStock, or better.

First time I have seen him run and had anything to guage.�* From previous event I have run, once with Cody we have the following results.

1T�* �*3 Bellamy, Neal Black 1996 Chevrolet Corvette 51.088 (0.869 faster than Tim)(AS)

1T�* �*33 Case, Cody Silver 1998 BMW M3�* 54.295 (BS)

3T�* �*66 magyar, paul Silver 2005 Subaru WRX STi�* 52.962 (1.333 faster than Cody)

1T�* �*191 Bergin, Tim White 2004 Subaru WRX STi 51.957 (2.338 faster than Cody)(He is always the fastest STU guy in all the Dallas events I have been to)

Yesterday we have (I used raw time here):

1T�* �*9 Mark Sipe White 2005 Mazda RX-8�* 55.556 (BS)

1T�* �*182 S. Maxcy White 1994 Chevrolet corvette 55.923 (AS) (slower than Sipe but beat Neal Bellamy)

3�* �*33 Cody Case Silver 1998 BMW M3 59.327 (3.771 slower than Sipe)

3T�* �*166 Terry Fair Silver 05 Subie STI 58.459 (0.868 faster than Cody, 2.903 slower than Sipe)

5�* �*66 Paul Magyar Silver 2005 Subaru WRX STi 60.042 (0.715 slower than Cody, 4.486 slower than Sipe)

Divisional in Houston (best times each day)

1T�* �*66 Paul Magyar Silver 2005 Subaru WRX STi 59.630 (day 1 0.961 behind B stock, 0.733 behind A stock)
1T�* �*66 Paul Magyar Silver 2005 Subaru WRX STi 58.573�* (day 2 0.583 behind B stock, 1.990 behind A stock)

B Stock
1T�* �*82 Phil Weber Grey 2004 Mazda RX-8 58.669 (dry)
2T�* �*99 Donovan Brown Cosmos Black 1997 BMW M3 57.990

A Stock
1T�* �*182 Stu'd Maxcy White 1994 Chevrolet corvette 58.897 (in the wet I think)
1T�* �*182 Stu'd Maxcy White 1994 Chevrolet corvette 56.583

A lot of numbers and I am not sure what that means.�* =P

I can say this, Sipe was crazy fast and if we can run with him, we should be wearing a jacket.

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SCCA event #5 results

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