Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Discussing the new "NASA SpecM3" class

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Discussing the new "NASA SpecM3" class

    http://www.specm3.com/vpr.html - see the rules here.

    Its a neat concept class... E36 M3s with very few power mods, but the full complement of track/solo suspension tweaks. 9" wide wheel max, no flared fenders. Full interior is a must, so not a gutted track warrior. This is being pushed along by long-time BMW racer Bob Tunnel.

    Take a minute to read the rules. What strikes Hanchey and I as so odd is this:
    • Vorshlag makes a ton of parts legal for this class/model
    • Almost every single allowable mod for this new class has already been done to our (class eligible) 1997 M3, the old STU car. And almost nothing else we have done is not allowed.
    • All our car would need is a cage, fire bottle, nets and some tires to compete
    • We've been recently looking for a new club racing class to run this car in




    We're in talks with the rules makers now, asking about allowances for AST shocks. We might have finally found a new purpose for the old M3!
    Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com
    2018 GT / S550 Dev + 2013 FR-S / 86 Dev + 2011 GT / S197 Dev + C4 Corvette Dev
    EVO X Dev + 2007 Z06 / C6 Dev + BMW E46 Dev + C5 Corvette Dev

  • #2
    Re: Discussing the new "NASA SpecM3" class

    Wow... that took about all of 10 minutes to get here

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: Discussing the new "NASA SpecM3" class

      Originally posted by Fair!
      http://www.specm3.com/vpr.html - see the rules here.
      I'm not a fan of the rules. Min weight is even heavier than Spec3.

      When will they learn that less weight = less money on consumables? Strip out the carpet, sound deadening, and passenger seat at a minimum. Those are all "free" weight saving mods. Especially if you're going to throw in 150lbs of hero weight.

      No sunroof removal allowance means the "rare" non-sunroof cars are at an advantage. I'd much rather have the sunroof weight as ballast in the footwell than on top of the car.

      Lots of other stuff jumps out. Must run the stock fender liners? Stock brake ducting?

      I could nitpick all day.

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: Discussing the new "NASA SpecM3" class

        Weight doesn't bug me too much. It is faster than Spec3 being a M3 motor vs. 325/8. The factory mid pipe has got to go and the fender liners are not good, but the rules are pretty interesting to me.

        Fender liners, you can blow $500 piecing that stuff back together since it all hangs on a $180 piece. The rest builds on that. Not a great way to spend your budget.
        Brian Hanchey
        AST Suspension - USA

        Comment


        • #5
          Re: Discussing the new "NASA SpecM3" class

          Originally posted by laz
          No sunroof removal allowance means the "rare" non-sunroof cars are at an advantage. I'd much rather have the sunroof weight as ballast in the footwell than on top of the car.


          What what! No sunroof up in here!

          I agree that the rules aren't perfect, but compare this class to Spec3, SpecE36, and SpecE30 - all of those other three are a good bit slower and have HUGE limitations (spec spring rates that are too soft, ride heights too tall, 15" wheels too skinny).
          Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com
          2018 GT / S550 Dev + 2013 FR-S / 86 Dev + 2011 GT / S197 Dev + C4 Corvette Dev
          EVO X Dev + 2007 Z06 / C6 Dev + BMW E46 Dev + C5 Corvette Dev

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: Discussing the new "NASA SpecM3" class

            Originally posted by Fair!
            [*]All our car would need is a cage, fire bottle, nets and some tires to compete
            or a 2.5 lb fire extinquisher.

            Don't forget who sent this info to you... I expect royalties

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Discussing the new "NASA SpecM3" class

              I just emailed Bob and the rest of the team about my suggestions (AST inclusion into the format).

              Though I agree the weight could be less, I think stuff like the sun-roof is nitpicking. They are trying to get as many people involved as possible. Sure, the sunroof people "MAY" have a slight advantage. And after that first win and you are given some "hero balast," the field will even itself up some. Interestingly enough, many of these rules mean the car could be driven to the track to compete and then driven home without a trailer. Important for us who can't afford a tow rig and trailer (yet).

              Comment


              • #8
                Re: Discussing the new "NASA SpecM3" class

                I called Bob yesterday. He's at SEMA and difficult to find. Heck I was at SEMA two years ago and couldn't hook up with him. I'm sure we'll hear more when he's back.
                Brian Hanchey
                AST Suspension - USA

                Comment


                • #9
                  Re: Discussing the new "NASA SpecM3" class

                  When did everyone catch wind of this whole SpecM3 class?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Re: Discussing the new "NASA SpecM3" class

                    Originally posted by rp1
                    When did everyone catch wind of this whole SpecM3 class?
                    I pinged Hanchey yesterday afternoon after getting an e-mail from one of the SM3 directors (Grant Barclay). If you look all of those guys are from Colorado and are either BMWCCA or SCCA officers or Bimmerhaus dudes.

                    Anyway, they were trying to recruit me into SM3 and sent me the link. When I saw a lack of Vorshlag parts, I pinged Hanchey since I know he and BT are buds (that, and I have all MF/VS parts on my car).

                    My only issue with it is that I have an STU car. I run more auto-x events then DE / Time Trials. I even drive my car on the street. Moving to a 6pt weld-in cage makes me illegal for any of the auto-x classes that I'm currently legal for and makes me extremely non-competitive in those that the cage makes me legal for. That, and driving on the street with a 6pt is just waiting for a skull-crakin... so that's out.

                    Instead, I just played the 'puss' card and offered to help them in any way I can... including looking for sponsors

                    Looks like it could be a really cool class, and if I had the means, I'd think about buying a beater M3 and setting it up for SM3.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Re: Discussing the new "NASA SpecM3" class

                      Originally posted by Fair!
                      I agree that the rules aren't perfect, but compare this class to Spec3, SpecE36, and SpecE30 - all of those other three are a good bit slower and have HUGE limitations (spec spring rates that are too soft, ride heights too tall, 15" wheels too skinny).
                      I think you're missing the point of a spec series. It's not about fast, it's about "equal". If a class is slow, everybody in class is slow together. The fun is in battling it out with another driver in a car that is "the same".

                      The other aspect of a spec series that seems to contribute to popularity is low cost. Smaller tires, lighter weight cars, and cheap/free mods all contribute to making a class that's fun and affordable to race in.

                      To each his own. I'll stick with spec e30

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Re: Discussing the new "NASA SpecM3" class

                        Originally posted by laz
                        I think you're missing the point of a spec series. It's not about fast, it's about "equal". If a class is slow, everybody in class is slow together. The fun is in battling it out with another driver in a car that is "the same".

                        The other aspect of a spec series that seems to contribute to popularity is low cost. Smaller tires, lighter weight cars, and cheap/free mods all contribute to making a class that's fun and affordable to race in.

                        To each his own. I'll stick with spec e30
                        A spec series is all about equality, but all the other series limit you to the same part from the same manufacturer. Who the heck cares if your camber plates are from TM or VS? What makes that more equal? I'm all about equality, but you will never get full equality, even in a spec series (unless you're racing Porsche 911 Cup or Ferrari Challenge series where the factory handles the cars and their setup).

                        As much as people want equality, I feel that they want cheap more than anything and a good group of people to race against. For the speed, SpecM3 will probably be faster than any other BMW spec series out there and the cost over SpecE36/Spec3 will be minimal. Anyone who would track an E36 M3 already has a combination of the required suspension bits (obviously OEM). So get the cage and do some wheel to racing strait away. How simple is that? Heck, you could just buy a decent condition M3 for $10k-12k, cage it, get racin'. Then upgrade as regular maintenance comes around.

                        I honestly don't see this as any worse than the current Spec series out there and many compelling reasons I (and others) will participate.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Re: Discussing the new "NASA SpecM3" class

                          Oh yes, thanks to John for sending us the info on this class!

                          Originally posted by John in Houston
                          My only issue with it is that I have an STU car. I run more auto-x events then DE / Time Trials. I even drive my car on the street. Moving to a 6pt weld-in cage makes me illegal for any of the auto-x classes that I'm currently legal for and makes me extremely non-competitive in those that the cage makes me legal for. That, and driving on the street with a 6pt is just waiting for a skull-crakin... so that's out.
                          Well we've been kicking around the same "cage in a street car?!" limitaiton. Maybe.... just maybe there can be an exception for STU if you have a SpecM3. Since all of the other rules perfectly sync up, why not a weld in 6 point? I mean a bolt-in 6 point is already Stock legal, thus ST legal. Bob T has some pull in the SCCA and maybe he can make the case. There are already several precedents in Solo classes, where cars prepped to certain road racing classes are allowed to run in Solo classes that they would otherwise not be legal for.

                          Or maybe they'll allow a bolt-in cage for use in SM3? There used to be bolt-in cages used in SSGT and some other club racing classes. I don't think they currently allow them, for safety/design reasons. The fit of a bolt in cage is generally not as good as a weld in cage, especially when a racer buys one of the pre-built bolt-in cage kits out there. There are compromises made so that a bolt-in cage can fit in cars that might have slightly different interior configurations.

                          Personally I'm not a fan of cages used in street cars, but I will admit to driving our caged Alpha car on the street several times, sans helmet. Taylor at DP made the cage fit very close to the roof and there's decent head room clearance if you mount the seat low enough, and of course we've padded the bars near the passenger and driver with the correct foam.



                          I've also ridden in an FStock prepped autocross car that had a bolt-in cage, Chris Ramey's old 5.0 Mustang. Getting out of the car one time (crawling out is a more accurate description) I bonked my head on an exposed bolt head near a tube junction, and of course it bled like a head wound. I didn't ride in it anymore after that and haven't been a fan of bolt in cages ever since.

                          Originally posted by John in Houston
                          Looks like it could be a really cool class, and if I had the means, I'd think about buying a beater M3 and setting it up for SM3.
                          Higher mileage E36 M3s have dipped into the $5-7K range, and there are tons of pretty nice examples out there in the $10-12K range. Stupid cheap. Unlike an 325/328 E36 or 325 model E30, the E36 M3 has better brakes, suspension, and power, and would be a quicker car right out of the box.

                          I've never been a huge fan of building a Spec class car for our own use, as most of them are fairly slow relative to other cars on track (Spec Miata, SpecE30, Spec Honda, etc) and also mostly because we'd have to use some brand shocks other than AST and/or other brand suspension bits that you must buy.

                          I'm a big fan of this SM3 set of rules because they offer the racer a good bit more choice within the same price range/type of parts - allowing more than just one brand/part number in a lot of areas of the suspension, and giving the drivers a huge selection of spring rates, dampers, and wheel/tire selection. So many spec suspensions are too soft or don't allow enough adjustment to tailor the setup to a particular driver's tastes. Other classes can sometimes pander to "cheap" so heavily that they limit tire selection to a single, very narrow, low grip size/model. This class allowing up to 9" wheels and NOT specifying the exact diameter, width or tire brand/model gives racers a lot of choices. In that sense its not a "true" spec class, as there will be significantly different set-ups out there in the same class, but the actual costs still should be fairly similar between cars and it will let racers pick a set-up that meets their needs, not the needs of the rules makers or the companies/products that they often times represent.

                          Good stuff. A couple of tweaks and this could be the best Spec class ever!
                          Last edited by Fair!; 11-05-2008, 12:07 PM.
                          Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com
                          2018 GT / S550 Dev + 2013 FR-S / 86 Dev + 2011 GT / S197 Dev + C4 Corvette Dev
                          EVO X Dev + 2007 Z06 / C6 Dev + BMW E46 Dev + C5 Corvette Dev

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re: Discussing the new "NASA SpecM3" class

                            Originally posted by Fair!
                            Oh yes, thanks to John for sending us the info on this class!
                            Someone has to watch out for you guys

                            Originally posted by Fair!
                            Bob T has some pull in the SCCA and maybe he can make the case. There are already several precedents in Solo classes, where cars prepped to certain road racing classes are allowed to run in Solo classes that they would otherwise not be legal for.
                            The biggest obstacle I see is SCCA vs. NASA. No Bueno. No Amor.

                            Still a cool class. I fully support it. Just can't afford to run it right now.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Re: Discussing the new "NASA SpecM3" class

                              Well AST 4100s have been tentatively approved by the rules makers. AST 4200s = too much money. Oh well, at least you can use real shocks in the class.
                              Terry Fair - www.vorshlag.com
                              2018 GT / S550 Dev + 2013 FR-S / 86 Dev + 2011 GT / S197 Dev + C4 Corvette Dev
                              EVO X Dev + 2007 Z06 / C6 Dev + BMW E46 Dev + C5 Corvette Dev

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X