97 M3/4/5 running in STU

[GotCone?]

Re: 97 M3/4/5 running in STU

Chris Mayfield's E36 M3 has been very fast ever since he added 18x10s and 285/30/18 Yokohama AD08s. He was 3rd in a fast field of 19 at the Vail Valley Tour. AST 4200s and the other usual stuff.

Nice work Chris!

[GaryK]

Re: 97 M3/4/5 running in STU

Hey guys, I need to make a decision and hopefully a little info will help me here. I have a 97 M3 sedan, NON-sunroof car, that I'm playing with in STU. After solving a sway bar problem, I'm encouraged with how fast the car is on a very basic setup consisting of AST 4100's, camber plates, a front sway bar, 17x9 wheels, and the typical 255 width StarSpecs.

I've been considering selling this car and getting a 325 to run in STX. But, as of now I haven't found a car so I'm thinking about doing some more prep on the M3. One of the things I'd like to do if I keep running it is the 18x10 wheels with wide tires, likely the 285 Yokes. My question is, what ride height and approximate spring rates was Mayfield running on his car as shown in this thread? I like to run my car higher than most anyway, but on the other hand I like to run softer spring rates than most. I'm trying to figure out if it's realistic for me to run the big wheels and tires and set up the way I'd like to.

Thanks

[Chris]

Re: 97 M3/4/5 running in STU

To "fit" the 285s, I was running 680F/800R spring rates. Ride heights were approximately 13.25F/12.5R, if I remember correctly. I've got some old pictures of the car on that setup and you can gauge from those pretty well. The front tires were not inside the fenders, the springs were just stiff enough to keep the fenders from ever hitting them.

In my (humble) opinion, you should wait another year, and run the M3 as-is (or at least don't go crazy rolling the fenders.) With the supposed 2012 ST* reorg, there's some chance that the M3 could end up in a competitive environment again.

I think the car was extremely fast on the 18x10/285 combo, but it didn't fit easily and took **hours** of time on the alignment rack to get the perfect camber/spacer/toe-in setup that allowed it to fit. It required higher than optimal ride heights, and still rubbed in some places.

If you ultimately want to take the car to BSP, then you might as well get the 18x10s. If you're thinking ST*, I would stick with the 17x9/255 or 265 Dunlops, or 18x9/265 Dunlop combos. 18's are exceptionally more expensive, in most cases.

[Fair!]

Re: 97 M3/4/5 running in STU

To "fit" the 285s, I was running 680F/800R spring rates. Ride heights were approximately 13.25F/12.5R, if I remember correctly. I've got some old pictures of the car on that setup and you can gauge from those pretty well. The front tires were not inside the fenders, the springs were just stiff enough to keep the fenders from ever hitting them.

There's some more pictures of Chris' car here and here.

In my (humble) opinion, you should wait another year, and run the M3 as-is (or at least don't go crazy rolling the fenders.) With the supposed 2012 ST* reorg, there's some chance that the M3 could end up in a competitive environment again.

Agreed. Fitting the 18x10" wheel on an E36 in ST legal trim is VERY difficult. We had hell trying to do this on our E36 M3 with a "265" Yokohama (measured closer to 278mm). We did the same machinations with alignment and spacers Chris did to make them fit and they still rub - a lot - especially in the rear. We trashed a pair of front fenders before we found the correct set-up, too.



We eventually gave up trying to make the 265 AD07s fit and went to Bridgestone 265/35/18s, which were substantially narrower and easier to fit. We got absolutely KILLED that year at Nationals, compared to when we ran the 255/40/17 Yokohamas on custom 3-piece CCW 17x9.5" wheels the year before.

If you're thinking ST*, I would stick with the 17x9/255 or 265 Dunlops, or 18x9/265 Dunlop combos. 18's are exceptionally more expensive, in most cases.

Agreed. Personally I'd stick with 17" tires.

The cost for custom wheels is high (Hanchey paid $2500), and they are heavier than the D-Force 1-piece wheels (20.4 lbs), but the custom 17x9.5" CCWs were the fastest set-up we ran on our E36 M3 in STU, and allowed us to use (less costly, lighter and more forgiving sidewalls of) 17" tires. For a LOT less money and weight, the 16.4 lb D-Force 17x9" is ideal.

Be patient, if you can. ST* will get a major re-org, often delayed and pushed back to a "rumored" 2012 date. It may happen at the pathetic, absurdly slow, obtuse speed that the SEB is known for, but it HAS TO HAPPEN. Its been obvious to many of us racing in STU (and losing to AWD boost buggies) since 2005, but within 2... to 10 years at the max, the SEB will probably pull their collective heads from their uncaring rectums and move the 2WD non-boosted cars out of STU and into a new, more competitive ST class above STX.

Then within 2-4 years after THAT it will earn its spot as a "recognized" class, eligible for a real National Championship and a jacket... But if it were a new Prepared or SP class for pathetically slow British cars and/or Honduhs, that entire process would take mere months (see "G Prepared" and "FSP" ....don't frakking get me started!!!!)

edit: there's also a D-Force 18x9.5" five spoke wheel now that would be easier and might be a better option for you than the 17x9 or 18x10.

[GaryK]

Re: 97 M3/4/5 running in STU

Thanks a lot guys. It sounds like it's not worth it to go for the 18x10's. Maybe the thing to do is just spend the money primarily on things that can be unbolted and moved over to a 325 if I get tired of the disadvantage of the M3 in STU. For now it's fine, as I can win against the STI's at the local level where I run it and pax right at the top too (typically somewhere in the top four depending on the course and surface). I'd just be more likely to do higher level events if the car was up to it.

I can't complain too much since there's plenty left to do. This winter would be a good time to do a full exhaust including ebay header, probably get a proper tune to go with it. Race seats are a no brainer. Throw in a lightweight battery, and look for anywhere else I can save a few pounds. I also thought about trying the 265 width tires on my 17x9 wheels, even though I know the wheel width isn't optimal.

[GaryK]

Re: 97 M3/4/5 running in STU

Terry, I don't see that 18x9.5 five spoke wheel on your website. Just wondering what the specs are...weight, offset, price?

Edit: Nevermind! I found the info...those look like an interesting option.

[rp1]

Re: 97 M3/4/5 running in STU

Locally, sure.

Nationally, No.

STX - T1 63 Andy Hollis 1989 Honda Civic Si Wht Toyo 124.804
STX - T2 Neal Tovsen 1993 BMW 325is Grn Hankook 125.645
STX - T6 Elliot Speidell 1995 BMW 325i Red Hankook 126.388
STX - T7 Bryce Merideth 1997 BMW 328is Mrn Bridges 126.676

STU - T5 118 Colin Fiedler 2006 Mitsubishi Evo IX Bridges 124.978
STU - T7 183 Joshua Luster 2006 Subaru Impreza WRX Dunlop 126.174
STU - T10 198 John Hale 2006 Subaru WRX STI Blk Dunlop 126.818

Neal could have trophied in the 7th position in STU with his STX BMW. He has fully admitted that he drove like crap on Day 1, which pushed Hollis to #1 (who could have gotten 5th place in STU in his completely ST legal Civic). Elliot and Bryce could have trophied in STU as well with their times.

Now, all things being equal, it's possible that the E36 M3 would be killed in STU. However, all things are not equal. Even top drivers have a bad week and don't do well at Nationals...and that leaves the window open for a well prepared car that's not expected to do well. Again, all things being equal, the E36 M3 should be faster than the non-M3 E36s.

Long story short: The M3 can give you a shot at a National trophy (just look at the numbers). However, if you fsck it up, you'll get no mercy. It's like handling a cobra. If you do it well, it'll be very impressive. If no mess it up, you will be bitten and everyone will tell you, "See, I told you so."

I would LOVE to try an M3 in STU against the boost buggies, but I like fighting uphill battles. I know I catch a lot of flack for saying some of this, but the times don't lie and you'll see this trend throughout the year at the National Tours as well.

[Fair!]

Re: 97 M3/4/5 running in STU

Comparing times from classes that ran in different heats and on different days at Nationals is tricky. There was always some cleaning of the course going on, then there were MASSIVE oil downs on each course that affected times. Plus the deluge of rain.

Also, there was essentially nobody fast running an E36 M3 in STU at Nationals this year (I hope I don't offend anyone that might have been running one). Everyone that was competitive in E36 M3s gave up years ago. One pro-built, competitively driven E36 M3 placed 13th in STU in 2009... that was it.

It doesn't seem so bad on paper... but nobody really discloses the real power numbers the boost buggies make, nor can you quantify the AWD vs RWD advantages easily. They are very real.

I would LOVE to try an M3 in STU against the boost buggies, but I like fighting uphill battles. I know I catch a lot of flack for saying some of this, but the times don't lie and you'll see this trend throughout the year at the National Tours as well.

Hey, if you think you are trying something new...go right ahead. Dump the time and money into an E36 M3 STU National build...

We'll be here to say "We told you so" after Nationals.

[rp1]

Re: 97 M3/4/5 running in STU

Hey, if you think you are trying something new...go right ahead. Dump the time and money into an E36 M3 STU National build...

We'll be here to say "We told you so" after Nationals.

Like you said, all the comparisons are tricky, but there are a lot of variables (including the lack of "Tier 1" drivers - like you said and even the fact that we're running in Lincoln now - which seems to have been a game changer for AWD vs 2WD in other classes). But hey, if I had the money to throw at an M3 (my next daily driver, probably), I might just be crazy enough. If nothing else, I'll be calling up for some new camber plates, bushings and some other Vorshlag bits

[John in Houston]

Re: 97 M3/4/5 running in STU

I know I catch a lot of flack for saying some of this, but the times don't lie and you'll see this trend throughout the year at the National Tours as well.

No flak... none needed. Someone pops up every year (for the past 4) and says the same thing, spends the same money, and gets the same smak-down.

Nothing new here... move along

edit - if you are a glutton for punishment, then setup the car for STU 2011, and take the whoopin like a man (or like Fair)... and then hope that the year of development pays off in 2012 when ST is supposed to be reviewed / modified... and in the meantime, come play in NASA TT with it

[bmwohio]

Re: 97 M3/4/5 running in STU

So I'm going to 'revive' this thread again.....if anyone is reading.

I have a 97 E36 M3 Sedan that I run in SCCA......I have ran CS, BSP, and am looking to go to STU next year (don't want to pay for Hoosiers anymore).

So are the set-ups still the same on your vehicles?

I'm going to be running Apex Arc-8's 17x9's with 255/40/17 Star Specs. I have single adjustable coilovers with camber plates and run -3.5F and -2.0R with 400# springs all the way around. The reason I do this is because this is my daily and auto-x/track car.

I am looking to up my spring rate and want to know what the best spring F/R is right now. I have been doing autocross since I was 16 years old, and I am now 33, so this isn't my first rodeo.

I am also considering race seats.

Anything new that you would reccomend for STU set-up. I mainly run local, but may go to a few regional or national tour events next season. I live in Columbus, OH so Toledo Express is only 2 hours away from me.

Thanks for any new info!

[Fair!]

Re: 97 M3/4/5 running in STU

So I'm going to 'revive' this thread again.....if anyone is reading.

I have a 97 E36 M3 Sedan that I run in SCCA......I have ran CS, BSP, and am looking to go to STU next year (don't want to pay for Hoosiers anymore).

Totally understand your aversion to Hoo$iers. STU will be fun... might be a bit frustrating running against some EVOs and STIs, but locally you might do well.

I'm going to be running Apex Arc-8's 17x9's with 255/40/17 Star Specs. I have single adjustable coilovers with camber plates and run -3.5F and -2.0R with 400# springs all the way around. The reason I do this is because this is my daily and auto-x/track car.

I am looking to up my spring rate and want to know what the best spring F/R is right now. I have been doing autocross since I was 16 years old, and I am now 33, so this isn't my first rodeo.

That spring rate is indeed really low. Upping the rates is going to cut down on roll/dive/squat/pitch, but only if your shocks can deal with the increased spring rate.

What style and brand are your coilovers?

I am also considering race seats.

Anything new that you would reccomend for STU set-up. I mainly run local, but may go to a few regional or national tour events next season. I live in Columbus, OH so Toledo Express is only 2 hours away from me.

Thanks for any new info!

Race seats can be a significant expense and can make street use a lot less livable. Without a slider you cannot get into the back seat, too. I'd go with a CG seatbelt lock and move on. Sure, there are cheap race seats out there, but they are all very HEAVY. And the various off-the-shelf sliders/mounts made for their installation are all complete junk and will raise the seat 3-4". Unless you are under 5'5" your head will be in the roof. You have to get custom built sliders/brackets made to fit the car, seat and you when dealing with the space constrained E36. This is very spendy.

Concentrate on the suspension and tires - that's where you will find the time.

[Chris]

Re: 97 M3/4/5 running in STU

I disagree with Terry on a few points-

Race seats are probably the single best upgrade you can do, at this point. You stand to lose a minimum of 60lbs - up to a possible 100lbs, depending on if you have power seats or not. Off-the-shelf mounting like the VAC plates can get the seat 3+" lower than the stock seats, and you'll be spending your time driving the car instead of holding on for dear life trying to stay upright and in the driver's seat. I think they are one of the best upgrades you can do.

Also, obviously the point about rear seat access is moot since you have a sedan.

Spring rates - Gotta answer Terry's question first. What brand, model? Also, do you have aftermarket swaybars? If so, which brand/size?

[Fair!]

Re: 97 M3/4/5 running in STU

I disagree with Terry on a few points-

Race seats are probably the single best upgrade you can do, at this point. You stand to lose a minimum of 60lbs - up to a possible 100lbs, depending on if you have power seats or not. Off-the-shelf mounting like the VAC plates can get the seat 3+" lower than the stock seats, and you'll be spending your time driving the car instead of holding on for dear life trying to stay upright and in the driver's seat. I think they are one of the best upgrades you can do.

Also, obviously the point about rear seat access is moot since you have a sedan.

OK, I'll grant you that race seats do make a difference to the driver, I just might argue that the cost/performance aspect is pretty poor. The OEM M3 seats are anywhere from 62-77 lbs each (power vs manual, cloth and leather), from what I've weighed.

Light, fixed back race seats are $700-800 each (Sparco EVO, Cobra Suzuka, etc). Then you will need the VAC "shotgun" mounts, but that only works for a single driver. Its much more common to have 2 drivers for a car for autocross use, and that almost always means a slider. The off-the-shelf sliders available for the E36 raise the seat 1-2" above the stock set-up, so I always recommend custom built sliders.

Your ST* legal seats have to weigh 25# each with brackets, and usually are closer to 30 lbs with a slider (driver's side only). So let's figure 55 lbs for the two race seats vs 120-140 for the stockies. The difference in weight is indeed 65-100 lbs, as Chris points out, which is not insignificant. Still, with $1800-2000 invested (2 seats + brackets) I think that money might go further in better wheels/tires, better shocks/springs. Race seats are still a pain to use for a street car, even with the sedan (missed that - my bad).

So yes, this is a mod to do on a Nationally competitive STU effort, but only after those other (more important) items are maximized. For a "local effort", that's a lot of money for the weight saved. A better bang-per-buck weight saver is a lightweight battery, perhaps?

Just my $.02

[Chris]

Re: 97 M3/4/5 running in STU

No argument on the cost, they aren't cheap. I hate the stock seats (and am still pretty young) so the sacrifice in daily driving isn't so big for me... I much prefer the race seats except on 3+ hour trips... And then I just stick a pillow under my butt and suck it up.

A driver's seat, at the very least, will save 33-50 lbs and will pay very large dividends in driver confidence and ability. The M3 sedans came with "sport" seats, not the vaders, which offer approximately zero lateral support. They really, _really_ suck.

While I agree there are better lb/dollar parts to replace, the driving experience overall is vastly improved with a good fitting seat.

I have RaceTech RT1000's in my car, with RaceTech side mounts, sparco slider (driver's side only), and custom floor mounts made out of angle iron.



The weight is just about exactly what Terry quotes, around 30 lbs total for the driver's seat and 27ish for the passenger seat. I have the seat spaced *up* because my girlfriend is short and autocrosses the car. As it is, the seat is 2" lower than the lowest setting of the stock manual sport seats. I could probably drop the seat another 1-1.5" if it was just me driving the car.

Also, the sedans do not fit wide seats. At all. My racetechs hit the pillar in my seating position (I'm 6', skinny) and the seat is touching the carpet on the center console. Anything with wider shoulders is not going to fit easily. You can see in the picture that the seat is literally touching the B-pillar. It's rubbed through now after a season of driving.