LT1 or LS1 Motor Discussion of Pros/Cons

[Dean!]

This is to be a civil (ie. anti-Fair-antic) discussion about the LT1 and LS1 motors, pro's, con's and reasoning.

It will serve as a central place for people to review when considering the LS1 or LT1 motor.

I will start off that I am LT1-biased and I will post my thoughts on the LT1. We'll keep this as objective as I, err, Fair, err, anyone possibly can.

[Dean!]

LT1 or LS1 Motor Discussion of Pros/Cons

hehehe... cracking me up. my panties aren't in a wad... i am just replying to some questionable correlations I see being made. you are the one writing in all bold large typeface.

Relying on internut 2nd hand experience (and any time Lou G is referenced) is grasping at straws...

You missed my sarcasm... almost every "Fair Tirade" has the phrase "panties in a wad" or "over sensitive" check out any tirade you've had against Duck, Bryan, Paul, McNomad, anyone... you're so predictable now!

I put "verified by owner" to show that it came straight from the owner that I personally knew...not 2nd hand....

But again...I bet I'm driving a cammed/new valvetrain bandaided FRC next year anyway... See y'all March 2006

[Hunter]

LT1 or LS1 Motor Discussion of Pros/Cons

My Ls6 has at this point over 35k on the clock. It burns about .5qts ever oil change and I am auto-x ing every weekend. Now I do always run 7qts of oil in it and I check it every time I stop for gas and between heats at events. At this point I am very happy with it.

[Fair!]

LT1 or LS1 Motor Discussion of Pros/Cons

hehehe... cracking me up. my panties aren't in a wad... i am just replying to some questionable correlations I see being made. you are the one writing in all bold large typeface.

You replied to my LT1 block strength reply where I was obviously talking about massive power levels (above 450 whp) and then went off on the whole Dean's Exploding LS1 tirade... that none of us have any direct experience with, except you and your pushrods and duck and his oil usage (and as I pointed out, 1 qt used in 3000 miles of duck driving isn't bad when compared to millions of 5.0L Fords built). There's 5 other people here don't have any problems with their LSX based engines.

Relying on internut 2nd hand experience (and any time Lou G is referenced) is grasping at straws... and data form 200K mile street driven caprices are not the same experiences as autocrossed or tracked corvettes and camaros. Maybe you don't see your internet pals blowing up LT1s because... most of today's f-body racers have sold their LT1s and are racing LS1s?

But if LS1s are such time bombs, I guess you can have the last laugh when all of ours blow up. I am living life on the edge! I better start saving up for my next engine rebuild!

[Dean!]

LT1 or LS1 Motor Discussion of Pros/Cons

Fair (tm), stop getting your panties in a wad (fair tm)...oh and stop being so sensitive... (fair tm)

Dean, I was talking about ultimate block strength with the LT1 for highly modified engines, in response to Erik's post. The main point being - there's no options beyond a stock LT1 block for highly modified cars. LS1 has a C5R block and others. SBC has loads of options including motown block, nascar blocks, etc. Sure, for <400 whp engines, the LT1 can and does work fine...

Is the LT1 and LS1 not a SBC ? I wasn't originally talking about ultimate power, no.... I don't think the SBC NHRA drag racers use LS1 C5R blocks - I bet they are using the same general SBC design from the 70's with a lot of alcohol fuel... THAT is ultimate horsepower on an old and decrotid SBC design.... (I'm not even sure what decrotid means...)

Whaaat? Puleease.

The LT1 might not bend pushrods, but it has it's own PROBLEMS, like the water pumps and optisparks that have put just about every LT1 powered car owned by any Dallas TAMSCC person on the side of the road with a break down. That is as bad as any bent pushrod in all of the LS1 cars... which has only happened in your car. After you admittedly over-revved it.

As in typical Fair style (tm), you pick out pieces of threads and erroneously exaggerate them... I never overreved my LS1 Formula (like Duck going from 3rd to 2nd during a drag race, a couple of times - THAT is overrevving)...I banged the rev limiter during autocrosses.. are you telling me you can't bang the rev limiter in an LS1 car ?? Banging the revlimiter ain't overrevving....

Also, in my experience and the two dozen 9C1 Service Records I reviewed at the Department of Public Safety Fleet office in Austin, TX, the waterpumps and optisparks seem to have 80-100k miles lives. That's pretty dang good IMHO. Sure, an opti can leave you stranded, but what do you expect from a typical car with 100k miles ?

Duck's LS1 Formula burned oil, sure. Amy's LS1 Formula was silent as a church mouse and didn't use a bit of oil between changes. I haven't heard Justin complaining about his LS6 using oil or making noise? Duck's LS1 GTO uses no oil that we have heard of. Our LS2 is at 3600 miles now (3100 miles on the last oil change) and I checked the oil level yesterday - up to the full mark. So that is 1 for 5 "oil burners" in Dallas LSX engines... and this is a DUCK driven car we're talking about here! If anyone is gonna use some oil in anything...

I'd hope the LS6 and LS2 is vastly improved over the LS1 - but I don't know the differences... Also we are talking about cars with less than 6k miles (and Justin at 22k?) These are cars with waaaaay less miles than the baseline 140k mi Caprices I have experience with... You're right..we don't know what 140k mile LS1 are like....

I saw the innards of Duck's first 9C1 motor (that Teucci bought for his el crapino) and it wasn't exactly oil burning free... didn't help that there were huge grooves in the cylinder walls from abnormal wear.

Whatever!! MAJOR rolling eyes action here!!! I can't believe you wrote that!!! You know for a fact that Duck found the air filter element OPEN - Teucci found SAND and GRIT in the motor because it had NO AIR FILTER due to some bozo cop car mechanic/jiffy lube that pinched the air filter hose and left it exposed.... Any motor will have huge grooves on the cylinder walls if you inject sand through the throttle body...

I would bet that many of these failures were from lazy drivers that never check their oil level between sessions, which is what you should do with ANY car. The oil gets whipped into foam during track events and if it's already low, it can starve around high G corners. Not perfect. Cheap solution - run an extra half to full quart of oil at the track. Lots of racers do...

Not enough.... you have to replenish oil after EVERY 20 minute session - in fact, that was likely the cause in many of the LS1 failures... and I know for a fact that none of them were lazy drivers, they are very competent racers and probably take care and wash their cars more often than you do!

Quit being an LT1 FAN BOY! The LT1 is a great motor and you can get them now in some dirt cheap used cars. As an engine design, it had some radical changes over previous gen SBC motors (reverse flow cooling, cam driven waterpump, ultra short runner length)... all of which have been recended in the LS1 engine design because of various problems or loss in horsepower.

I have been an advocate of domestic V8 engines for decades... I loved the SBF when it was in its heyday. I loved the LT1 motors when they were introduced and made so much more power than the Fords. And now that the LS1s are better still, I like them more. If the Dodge "hemi" V8 keeps coming with more power per liter, in a compact pushrod design, and in 425+ hp form, well... damn, you gotta love that, too. I don't care who makes it or what name it has - if it makes more power, reliabily, in a small package and for low cost, I'm gonna like it. Don't get hung up on brand names or engine generations, especially when basing much of your data on high 14 second 4 door Caprices.

Oh I would still drive an LS1 99-2000 FRC Corvette without a doubt..but I would allot a few grand for a new motor rebuild since I will have to bandaid everything...from new oil pump, maybe oil pan/windage tray, valvetrain - valve springs, drysump, etc... I know the tracked REBUILT LS1 F-body and Y-bodies are doing fine..but you have to go to the aftermarket to make it right... that's where I roll my slanted eyes in an oval...

[Fair!]

LT1 or LS1 Motor Discussion of Pros/Cons

Did anyone actually make it all the way through Fair's post?

The LT1 might not bend pushrods, but it has it's own PROBLEMS, like the water pumps and optisparks that have put just about every LT1 powered car owned by any Dallas TAMSCC person on the side of the road with a break down.

I seem to remember someone replacing a waterpump in a LS1??
http://www.vorshlag.com/ls1_waterpump.asp

hehehe...

If you had bothered to read my post, I mentioned that. And I did drive the Formula home, with the water pump a leakin...

[Nick]

LT1 or LS1 Motor Discussion of Pros/Cons

Lou G? He's a complete tool.

Quoted for truth!



My '01 LS1 uses maaaaybe .5qt per oil change, and I autocross a lot. I don't rev the piss out of it on the street, I don't shift at 5500 at every stoplight. I save the hard-on-the-engine driving for the ax course.

Dean, you can't use Duck as an example for car care. He's the odd point that throws the whole bell curve off...

[McCall]

LT1 or LS1 Motor Discussion of Pros/Cons

Did anyone actually make it all the way through Fair's post?

The LT1 might not bend pushrods, but it has it's own PROBLEMS, like the water pumps and optisparks that have put just about every LT1 powered car owned by any Dallas TAMSCC person on the side of the road with a break down.

I seem to remember someone replacing a waterpump in a LS1??
http://www.vorshlag.com/ls1_waterpump.asp

hehehe...

[C3]

LT1 or LS1 Motor Discussion of Pros/Cons

FWIW, I also autocrossed the piss out of my '01 LS1 SS at Mineral Wells (18+ events), tapped the rev limiter once on the street, and pulled a nice 3-2 shift at 80mph and never had any issues with my pushrods. Used .5qt every 3k miles, for 320rwhp that was always acceptable for me. Chuck and Andrew didn't even know about the oiling issues of LS1s when they popped theirs - I know b/c they both told me that in person.

[Fair!]

LT1 or LS1 Motor Discussion of Pros/Cons

Pack a lunch, boys...

I mean, is the LT1 block as weak as a factory 5.0L block? More or less? I remember discussing the strength of those factory SBF blocks, and their being suspect over 450 rwhp.

Dean, I was talking about ultimate block strength with the LT1 for highly modified engines, in response to Erik's post. The main point being - there's no options beyond a stock LT1 block for highly modified cars. LS1 has a C5R block and others. SBC has loads of options including motown block, nascar blocks, etc. Sure, for <400 whp engines, the LT1 can and does work fine...

?? As a group we have non-oil-burning LT1 F-bodies and Caprices that are averaging 140k miles with no oil consumption, never a bent pushrod...

Duck, 01 Formula - unacceptable by any car nut oil consumption, 1 quart every 3000 miles AND he's seen the LOW OIL LIGHT at least twice ?!??

We have bone stock LS1's that can't even make it past 40k miles without major oil consumption and bent pushrods...

Whaaat? Puleease.

The LT1 might not bend pushrods, but it has it's own PROBLEMS, like the water pumps and optisparks that have put just about every LT1 powered car owned by any Dallas TAMSCC person on the side of the road with a break down. That is as bad as any bent pushrod in all of the LS1 cars... which has only happened in your car. After you admittedly over-revved it.

Duck's LS1 Formula burned oil, sure. Amy's LS1 Formula was silent as a church mouse and didn't use a bit of oil between changes. I haven't heard Justin complaining about his LS6 using oil or making noise? Duck's LS1 GTO uses no oil that we have heard of. Our LS2 is at 3600 miles now (3100 miles on the last oil change) and I checked the oil level yesterday - up to the full mark. So that is 1 for 5 "oil burners" in Dallas LSX engines... and this is a DUCK driven car we're talking about here! If anyone is gonna use some oil in anything...

As a side point, all of the 5.0L Fords used 1 quart between changes since I ever started messing with those in 1989... that was a given, and many used more than a quart. Anything with low tension oil rings (virtually all V8s built since 1985) has a tendency to burn some oil during hard use...

Even LT1s. I have had a few of these myself, and a few of them used some oil between changes. I saw the innards of Duck's first 9C1 motor (that Teucci bought for his el crapino) and it wasn't exactly oil burning free... didn't help that there were huge grooves in the cylinder walls from abnormal wear.

The following LS1 motors in DFW have verifiably blown up while racing or burned oil in excess of a 1 quart every 1000 miles:...[second and third hand info beleted]

Look, track whores can and do break lots of stuff. Lou G? He's a complete tool. I don't know any of those other fools... They could have been running a quart too low for all I know.

The oil drainback in the LS1 is not ideal (and it isn't perfect in any wet sump motor, LT1s included), as it sends most of the return volume from the top of the motor back down onto the spinning crank. Doing 20+ minute sessions, especially without a topped off oil capacity, can cause oil starvation. I would bet that many of these failures were from lazy drivers that never check their oil level between sessions, which is what you should do with ANY car. The oil gets whipped into foam during track events and if it's already low, it can starve around high G corners. Not perfect. Cheap solution - run an extra half to full quart of oil at the track. Lots of racers do...

The upcoming LS7 has a full dry sump, probably for this reason. The ASA and C5R race cars using LSX based engines all had dry sumps... as do most real race cars. So, if you want a track whore LS1, run the full 5 (or 6 for C5s) quarts of oil and/or keep it under 30 minute track sessions. And don't bounce off the rev limiter! LT1s work better at track events with windage trays and higher capacity oil pans, too... like McCalls.

Then the moderate cases:
1. CrzyAzn, 98 Formula - replaced 2 sets of pushrods, the second set was while cruising at 75mph with no shifting involved. (Only 1 pushrod was bent for each set, but I decided to do all 8 just in case, for each occurrence) The first was after some autocrosses with a lot of rev limiter bounces...

As for the bent pushrods... which would you rather break when you over-revved an engine? Valves or pushrods?? If you are gonna spin an LS1 beyond 6000 rpms a lot (factory redline for LS1) then GET BETTER VALVE SPRINGS. The "problem" is that an LS1 likes to rev more than an LT1, since it makes more power everywhere... low, mid and up top. The Caprices aren't gonna be singing at 6500 rpm very often. Compare your LS1 (340 rwhp?) to your LT1 in the 3rd gen (250 rwhp?) - when you are making 100 hp more... and it you rev it a lot higher...

Like I'll repeat from prior threads, yes, stock for stock, and even aftermarket to aftermarket, the LS1 is leagues ahead of the LT1 in power...but the LT1 motor is apparently more stout in the long run.

This statement is based on... stock 9C1 Caprices that make 200-230 rwhp that manage to stay together for 150K+ miles? Great. But I have seen LS1s go for miles and miles, too. We just don't have many examples of LS1 powered 4 door land yachts that have 200K miles on them.

All the LS1 experience we see is in harder driven (and often times track whored) cars like Camaros and Corvettes... compare similar data if you want to make these generalized statements like "this motor lasts 2X as long". Are you trying to justify your lone Caprice or ... what? What is the point of this argument, anyway?

What would you do if you had a chassis that could take either an LS1 or LT1, like my BMW? Go for the iron block, heavier, LT1 that makes on average 75 less hp in stock form? (compared to all three: LS1/LS6/LS2) The ONLY reason to go with an LT1 would be to save a few bucks on the core motor... right? Remember: Most people building sports or race car engines do not build for 200,000 mile life cycles.

Who cares that an LS1 can make 450rwhp easier than an LT1 when it can't reliably (daily driving) make 300rwhp stock ?

Apparently just about everyone in the V8 performance world, as LT1 is waning in racing use while LS1 use is growing like wildfire, while making more power.

I just don't see the stock 300 rwhp failures you like to harp on, other than some small segment of idiotic track whores who can and do break everything. I only have extended experience with an 85K mile LS1 that had no problems, except a water pump (that was measurably easier and cheaper to fix than an LT1 water pump failure) and used no oil and made nary a peep. I've also had 6 LT1 cars... and these worked fairly well, too. But they all made less power.

If money is no object..then all points are moot... go with your 427ci LS1 and have at it....

Well, money usually is an object. LT1 Camaros are getting ridiculously cheap of late (sub $5K) and I have recommended these to TAMSCC autocrossers as recent as last month. Until the LS1 cars get that cheap, well, the LT1 makes more sense for a bottom budget racer. But if you want to spend a little more (and get a newer car) then an LS1 F-body is money well spent (these are getting cheap, too, in the $7-8K range). When building a motor to make power, where every penny isn't cherished, racers almost always go with the LS1 over the LT1... the LT1 really has no advantage over the LS1.

Uh-oh, that got you typing... Quit being an LT1 FAN BOY! The LT1 is a great motor and you can get them now in some dirt cheap used cars. As an engine design, it had some radical changes over previous gen SBC motors (reverse flow cooling, cam driven waterpump, ultra short runner length)... all of which have been rescinded in the LS1 engine design because of various problems or loss in horsepower.

I have been an advocate of domestic V8 engines for decades... I loved the SBF when it was in its heyday. I loved the LT1 motors when they were introduced and made so much more power than the Fords. And now that the LS1s are better still, I like them more. If the Dodge "hemi" V8 keeps coming with more power per liter, in a compact pushrod design, and in 425+ hp form, well... damn, you gotta love that, too. I don't care who makes it or what name it has - if it makes more power, reliabily, in a small package and for low cost, I'm gonna like it. Don't get hung up on brand names or engine generations, especially when basing much of your data on high 14 second 4 door Caprices.

[Dean!]

LT1 or LS1 Motor Discussion of Pros/Cons

I mean, is the LT1 block as weak as a factory 5.0L block? More or less? I remember discussing the strength of those factory SBF blocks, and their being suspect over 450 rwhp.

?? As a group we have non-oil-burning LT1 F-bodies and Caprices that are averaging 140k miles with no oil consumption, never a bent pushrod...

We have bone stock LS1's that can't even make it past 40k miles without major oil consumption and bent pushrods...

The following LS1 motors in DFW have verifiably blown up while racing or burned oil in excess of a 1 quart every 1000 miles:
1. A.M. - Mineral Wells Autocross, LS1 F-body, needs a new motor, verified by owner
2. J.Harris - 3 LS1 motors in a 1998 Vette under warranty, verified by owner
3. M.W. - 1 quart every 1000 miles, LS1 Trans Am, mainly track duty at Motorsports Ranch, verified by owner
4. R. H. - 2001 LS1 Vette Convertible - rod knock after Mineral Wells autocross school, verified by owner
5. B. Palmer - 2002 Z06 - blown up at MSR, verified by owner
6. Lou Gigliotti - stock 2001 LS1 Vette- verifiably blown up at MSR (this is the ONLY second hand account, the rest are straight from the owner themselves)
7. G. L. - 98 LS1 Camaro - blown up at MSR, verified by owner
8. K. T. - 99 LS1 Firehawk - blown up at MSR, verified by owner
9. C. B. - 99 LS1 Trans Am - blown up at MSR, verified by owner
10. Jack Farr, owner of Motorsports Ranch - numerous Driving School LS1 Camaro's with rod knock/oil starvation issues (this is third hand information, so don't quote me on that....) - Not sure they even do an LS1 Camaro Driving School anymore ??? I wonder why...

Then the moderate cases:
1. CrzyAzn, 98 Formula - replaced 2 sets of pushrods, the second set was while cruising at 75mph with no shifting involved. (Only 1 pushrod was bent for each set, but I decided to do all 8 just in case, for each occurrence) The first was after some autocrosses with a lot of rev limiter bounces...

2. Duck, 01 Formula - unacceptable by any car nut oil consumption, 1 quart every 3000 miles AND he's seen the LOW OIL LIGHT at least twice ?!??

Like I'll repeat from prior threads, yes, stock for stock, and even aftermarket to aftermarket, the LS1 is leagues ahead of the LT1 in power...but the LT1 motor is apparently more stout in the long run. Who cares that an LS1 can make 450rwhp easier than an LT1 when it can't reliably (daily driving) make 300rwhp stock ?

If money is no object..then all points are moot... go with your 427ci LS1 and have at it....

[Fair!]

LT1 or LS1 Motor Discussion of Pros/Cons

What are the "power limits" of the LT1 block? Aren't the LS1 engines far exceeding that upper limit figure? With the options of a Darton (sp?) stroker LS1 block or a C5R block, I think its a no-brainer for the high end applications. LS1.

either that or you ditch the LT1 block and go with a SBC based GenI block. The LT1 specific "stuff" is junk anyway... water pump, optispark, etc. Most racers run an electric water pump and many would love to dump the opticrap. The short runner LT1 intake is ok for most applications but too short for good low/mid range torque (auto-x engine) and not great for the biggest strokers.

I mean, is the LT1 block as weak as a factory 5.0L block? More or less? I remember discussing the strength of those factory SBF blocks, and their being suspect over 450 rwhp. I know you guys have an 8 second turbo LT1, but until it makes more than a few passes I guess you can't know how long it will live...

[racer7088]

LT1 or LS1 Motor Discussion of Pros/Cons

Besides the oiling sustem the LS1 is head and shoulders ahead of the LT1 almost everywhere. We don't even have a shop car LS1 that doesn't run at least mid nines or faster. Two are in the high 8s. The LT1 is just not going to do that for the same money but it's stil a very nice engine.

[Tommy R]

LT1 or LS1 Motor Discussion of Pros/Cons

http://www.turbomustangs.com/forums/...threadid=32773

[Dean!]

All you ever wanted to know about LT1

Great website on LT1 history
http://www.automotiverebuilder.com/ar/ar99928.htm