Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT + S197 Development Thread

[S.F. Maxcy]

Re: Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 - auto-x/track build

Hey, for track, I know what I would do with mine and I would not sit at the rates that I have. For the AutoX, the car felt better and better with more rate *bumpy lots made the car jump some, but smoother lots it seems to like it*.

The only thing I have noticed from my experience is the rates will need to be fairly different for each setup *autox vs. open track*. So, it makes me wonder where the optimization may be pushed for? I check in on progress regularly so I wait to see the results!

As you said.....to each their own. And I have been called various things over the years so....

I agree with you. For AutoX I would go with higher spring rates.

[Thinkkker]

Re: Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 - auto-x/track build

Hey, for track, I know what I would do with mine and I would not sit at the rates that I have. For the AutoX, the car felt better and better with more rate *bumpy lots made the car jump some, but smoother lots it seems to like it*.

The only thing I have noticed from my experience is the rates will need to be fairly different for each setup *autox vs. open track*. So, it makes me wonder where the optimization may be pushed for? I check in on progress regularly so I wait to see the results!

As you said.....to each their own. And I have been called various things over the years so....

[S.F. Maxcy]

Re: Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 - auto-x/track build

Hahahaha.

No seriously, I am laughing. I guess that I should not let you guys drive mine. Maybe its twitchy, but I like the way it feels!

If you guys wonder why, double what Terry posted and your around what I run

To each their own.

I'll stick to what certain professional teams have told me.

[Thinkkker]

Re: Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 - auto-x/track build

Hahahaha.

No seriously, I am laughing. I guess that I should not let you guys drive mine. Maybe its twitchy, but I like the way it feels!

If you guys wonder why, double what Terry posted and your around what I run

[S.F. Maxcy]

Re: Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 - auto-x/track build

Whoa, 450/200??? That seems awfully low, even with fairly high motion ratios, have you measured them? I suppose with 400 whp, power-on rotation probably isn't hard to come by. =]

I run 350/175 on my 06 S197 and I still need to re-valve my rear shocks to be softer. I have tried running 700/250...it ends up making the car crazy loose...but nothing else. Softer is without a doubt the way to go.

[murph]

Re: Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 - auto-x/track build

Whoa, 450/200??? That seems awfully low, even with fairly high motion ratios, have you measured them? I suppose with 400 whp, power-on rotation probably isn't hard to come by. =]

[GotCone?]

Re: Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 - auto-x/track build

great progress! Keep it up. I'm a big fan of the yellow lights too btw.

[Fair!]

Re: Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 - auto-x/track build

Project Update Jan 18, 2011: We got a lot accomplished on the Mustang over the past week, including installing the first set of AST 4100s, our first set of Hyperco springs, another set of Vorshlag camber plates, and the 18x9" Enkeis and 265/40/18 Yokohama ADVAN AD08s. Then we had the car aligned again at COBB and got it ready to take to the track for Saturday Jan 15th, where Costas and I ran it at the NASA Instructor clinic. Busy week... let's catch up.

AST 4100 on S197 install gallery = here



Stuart at AST-USA put the valving mojo on this set of 4100s, based on the spring rates we discussed and experience he has on his own S197 with ASTs. We picked them up Wednesday and AJ started the install on by getting the Mustang on the lift. He quickly removed the stock front struts assemblies (these had the Eibach lowering springs + Vorshlag plates - which we left intact) and then started on the rear, so I could make a spring perch adapter for the back.



Normally this AST 4100 S197 set comes with a machined black Nylon rear spring adapter, but they were out of stock and only had this set of shocks on hand from a previous test set. No worries, I got the measurements and machined two spring adapters on the manual lathe. Took me too long but I finally got the 3" OD Nylon cylinder whittled down to size, and they slide over the alignment cups on the rear axle. The AST adjustable ride height platforms fit over the Nylon adapter pieces, and the 2.5" ID x 8" x 200#/in Hyperco springs fit onto those, and slide inside the upper OEM spring alignment stub.



As convenient as the inverted rear single adjustable shocks are to adjust on the current 4100 S197 sets, we're working on a new set-up with AST-USA that will go to a standard arrangement + the body will get shorter; this all will give us more stroke at a lowered ride height. We set-up the ride height at the rear to 15.5", same as with the Eibach Pro lowering springs, for now.



Up front we went with a 60mm x 7" x 450 #/in Hyperco spring and a set of our camber/caster plates + 60mm double row bearing upper perches, all placed on the standard 4100 S197 strut. We set the ride height at 15", same as before. We're also working with AST-USA on a new 4100 strut arrangement that will keep the same stroke but allow a 1" lower ride height up front, as well as a double adjustable that is completely different. Look for several more AST shock designs to be tested on this car throughout 2011.

Once the ASTs were on we mounted up we scheduled an alignment check at COBB Tuning Plano for Thursday. I took the car by there and they were amazed that AJ had eyeballed the caster, camber and toe almost spot on. They just had to tweak the toe and we were done in minutes. The car ended up with -2.8° camber, +7.2° caster, and 3/16" total toe out (that was probably a bit excessive, in hindsight, and we'll bring it in to 0" toe for future track events). The ride quality was exceptional, as always, even with radically more front spring rate. We left the rear rates low on purpose, to hopefully help put power down for auto-x use. We might end up with two different spring rates for track and auto-x use - testing different rates at both types of events will show us more, which we'll share.


(click alignment sheet thumbnail above to see larger version)

When I got back from the alignment the tires and wheels had arrived from Tire Rack, and I only had to get one loose tire mounted to the "Test fit" wheel we had ordered earlier. AJ got those mounted up and they looked good.


Click the wheel and tire pics for larger versions

Friday I dropped off dealer orders around town in the Mustang to hopefully get the silicone mold release off the tires, then drove an hour across town at days end to head to Costas' place - they weren't very scrubbed but oh well, we'd get them good and scrubbed in at the track... right?



Wrong - it rained for the next 24 straight hours. It started raining as soon as I arrived at Costas', and we had to load the car onto his borrowed open trailer in the rain. Since we had a simple "in state" tow of only 4 hours, and we weren't bringing much in the way of gear/tires/spares (1 day event), we just used his buddy's open trailer and Costas' truck to tow down with - instead of hauling out my 38' enclosed gooseneck or his 28' enclosed tag trailer for this simple day at the track. Saves a ton on gas and towing with a little 18' open trailer is a total BREEZE compared to either of our big enclosed rigs. We could have driven the car down, but with so many new parts we didn't want to risk some silly failure sidelining us, and we had to be back in Dallas by 6 pm that day.

So we left DFW at 4 am Saturday morning and got down to San Marcos at 7:45am, unloaded, and were ready for the NASA instructor clinic by 8. It rained the entire way down and all day at Harris Hill Road, plus it was cold as balls. We still had fun, even if we didn't get any meaningful testing/data/video on the Mustang, due to the crappy conditions (standing water in most turns, visibility was poor, and grip was non-existent). Costas was an "instructor trainer" and I was there as an instructor trainee, hoping to get signed off for NASA (which could potentially give me a little flexibility at NASA events to take people for ride-thrus). The event was a blast (event write-up located here; picture gallery here) and we both got some good (soaking wet) track time in the Mustang.



Costas took around his trainees in the first 2 of 3 training scenarios in the car while I rode with "mock students" in their cars during the same tests, trying to point out their driving errors (on purpose), proper lines, etc. In the 3rd scenario I drove a "mock student" (Costas) around at 80% speed in my car to show the proper lines, techniques, etc. It was easy and fun, but just not that exciting due to the severely reduced speeds (rain + training). Luckily, after lunch they let us all loose on the track for a fun session, which ended up being about 35 minutes of quicker lapping in the rain. That session made the day!


The Yokohama AD08s were extremely planted in the wet

The Mustang was a blast to drive, even in the wet. 4th gear around the whole track (3rd just caused wheel spin), and with the AD08s and ASTs the car could seemingly pass anything out there. Lots and lots of fun. Big thanks to Costas for towing the car down, shooting so many pictures (430?!) in the rain, and for signing me off on the instructor deal.


There were no fewer than six 2010-2011 Mustangs at H2R that day

So next up - we've got the first real NASA Texas TT/HPDE/race event in 2 weeks (MSR-Houston), which we plan to attend, but the first Dallas area autocross we can make isn't until Feb 27th. We're looking at everyone's schedule and there's literally 4 autocross groups with events the same weekend as the first NASA event - damn it, why does this happen every year??

Anyway, lots more changes are in store for the Mustang. The splitter we're using is supposed to be available in about 2 weeks, and we have several other (STX legal) aero parts planned during the same time frame. Then headers + exhaust + cold air + tuning.

Stay tuned,

[Fair!]

Re: Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 - auto-x/track build

Project Update for Jan 11, 2011: This is a quick one, and its all about bling (preserving the factory finish and headlight glass). Costas came by last week and installed a full XPEL clear film paint protection kit, since the Mustang was still showroom fresh and unscathed by cone damage or rock chips. He installed the rocker panel kit, the "bikini" hood and front fender kits, the side mirror film, the under door handle film, and the door edge guard film kits.


Me and AJ did some Meguiers Quick Detail clean-up and let Costas take over


Costas is a master of patience, having never installed a film kit to this chassis it all went on and off several times before he locked it down


Once the clear film was on and dried its hard to even see where it starts/stops. Invisible protection.

After finishing the body protection film Costas installed the headlight cover kits.

That are tinted.

...Yellow....





I know its not going to please everyone's tastes... but it will keep the rock chips from the glass housings, and it is distinctive. We had a generally very positive response to the yellow XPEL headlight covers on the EVO X, so I figured... what the hell? And in ALMS the yellow XPEL light covers signified a different class of race cars, which was helpful in night races. So it has... a racing tie-in, sort of.


Amy and I did the headlight install on the EVO, dry, which still took us ~90 minutes. Costas made it look so easy this time

It looks a bit unusual in this indoor/fluorescent lighting, but in person it is more subdued and kinda... neat. I dunno.


Costas said "the red and yellow matches your shirt", so somehow that made it ok?

Just didn't want to distract you guys when you saw pics from this coming weekend's track event, with the yellow headlights... Just get the "Ahh! what have you done!" complaints out now.



Stuart @ AST-USA put the magic valving on our 4100 AST kit today and its being installed tomorrow. The wheels/tires are scheduled to arrive tomorrow also. Next thread update will be much more technical, with 90% less bling.

Thanks,

[Thinkkker]

Re: Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 - auto-x/track build

Not sure, but do the 197s still have the snubber on top of the pumpkin? If so, you may need to cut that down and/or remove to get rid of the bottoming out issue in the rear. People used to forget to do that on the Fox3 and SN95 cars and then wonder why the rear was always slamming around.

I havent had that issues. Though, you can only go so low. In good grip areas the rear will bounce on the bump-stops if you arent careful.

[GaryK]

Re: Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 - auto-x/track build

I've been eyeballing these cars lately. Even though I really don't want to spend the cash to order one the way I'd want...base GT, manual trans, no options except Brembo package...it sure is tempting. Reading this isn't helping matters any. If it proves to be a decent STX car, that would just be gravy.

[John in Houston]

Re: Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 - auto-x/track build

Not sure, but do the 197s still have the snubber on top of the pumpkin? If so, you may need to cut that down and/or remove to get rid of the bottoming out issue in the rear. People used to forget to do that on the Fox3 and SN95 cars and then wonder why the rear was always slamming around.

[Fair!]

Re: Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 - auto-x/track build

Project update for Jan 6, 2011: Crap, more than a month since my last update?! Well we've been busy and have done all sorts of testing and multiple camber plate and spring installs on the Mustang since then. Plus we installed the long wheel studs and some other bits. I was going to break this into 3 smaller posts, but I'm so far behind on so many threads I'll do one big brain dump to catch up here


Initial check of the stock alignment - click to enlarge

First, on December 10th, 2010, we got a "snap shot alignment" at COBB Tuning Plano to check the stock alignment specs. See the pic above. These guys were super fast and efficient - its THE place to get a performance alignment in north Dallas. Anyway, the front had about -0.5° camber and +6.7° caster, as delivered from the factory. Not too shabby; that's a lot more caster than I thought it might have, and about all I suspect it will need.



Next we installed the 3rd version of the S197 Vorshlag camber plates and some OEM style upper spring perches (one of our existing BMW-based perches works perfectly, and this allows us to use the double row radial bearing on an OEM style spring - win!) onto the stock struts and springs, to verify that the ride height was unaffected (it didn't alter it even 1/16" of an inch from stock), and the car got down to -2° camber up front.



We could easily add more caster (I didn't feel the need) and a tick more negative camber at this ride height (maybe 1/2 a degree more). To reach the extra camber range we'd needed a smaller "normal" height and diameter M14-2.0 (goofy thread pitch we don't already stock) locking nylock nut, as the stock nut limits inboard camber travel. I've got them on order and will offer these for use on OEM struts with our plates, like we do for most others. The stock strut top nut is a MASSIVE thing that takes up extra room.



Next we put the brand new 2011-specific Eibach Pro Kit lowering springs on the car on December 20th, and man... what a difference that made. This dropped the Mustang a hair over 1" at both ends, and the drop naturally bumped the front camber 1/2 a degree more negative (to -2.5&#176, with the same camber plate top setting as before. We rated the stock rear springs as well as the Eibach rears, and of course the lowering springs were progressive. I need to make a fixture to located the MASSIVE diameter of the bottom of both the stock and Eibach front springs onto our spring rater, in order to hold them secure while rating. But trust me (after compressing both multiple times to do camber plate installs), the fronts are both SUPER soft. I'll post up the stock & Eibach spring rates/weights/length numbers when I get caught up.



Of course the Mustang looks a LOT better with this lower ride height... duh. But it still rides nicely, too (the rates on these are still pretty soft - your grandmother wouldn't even complain). After driving it around for several weeks my wife says drives almost exactly like stock (it should have been an optional spring set from the factory!), with of course an inch less bump travel. I drove it again today (I almost never see this car) dropping off some late order deliveries, and I was LATE as hell so I was driving it like a complete a-hole. I managed to bottom the rear suspension just once, just slightly, and I was driving over some nasty bumpy roads (not always on 4 wheels). So it was highly unusual conditions, heh. I would recommend these Eibach lowering springs to anyone on a budget with a 2011 GT that wants to get rid of the 4x4 look - you can't spend ~$260 in any other way and make a bigger visual improvement on these cars, period. It won't make the car faster on a race track, other than the lower cg, but it will make it "look right". We sell these springs, so I figured we'd test them before going onto coilovers - and I'm glad we did.



Somewhere in there the longer (and expensive) ARP wheel studs were installed in the front hubs. This is in preparation of installing some ~7mm wheel spacers, to test fit the 18x10 RPF-1s properly. Woo, the first "racey" looking parts!



AJ pulled the hubs off the car and did these the right way, using our hydraulic press. About 45 minutes of work. We've also had the brake lines off the car, twice, getting stainless braided lines built to order. They look so money, and fit perfectly. I had the rear lines made 1" longer than stock, since the stock rear lines were being yanked a bit at full droop, from the factory (facepalm). We will make one more refinement to one bracket and offer them on our website for all 2005-2011 Mustangs, soon. Did I mention they are red and blingy? Pedal feel is of course excellent. I'll post up pics when I've had time to upload the studio shots.


Put those shiny bits on the left.... onto that car on the right... do it now!

The S197 AST 4100 coilovers are going on next. Hanchey at AST-USA is putting the magic valving tweaks on our set (after they get back from Daytona GA testing) and we should have these beauties installed early next week. The Hypercos we're trying out first (somewhat soft, at both ends) are here and ready to go on as well. And our complete set of 18x9" Enkei FP01 wheels and 265/40/18 Yokohama AD08 tires (remember: STX class limits tire and wheel widths) should be here on Monday. Hopefully we'll have time to get everything on, and the car re-aligned, before Costas and I bomb down to Harris Hill Road for the NASA instructor clinic track day event next Saturday.

I'm so excited to get back on track! I haven't raced anything since October 16th - even though I was at the SCCA TMS road course event on the 17th, I didn't get to run the 330 before "someone" blew up the motor - and I'm going INSANE. We'll grab some data via the DL-1 and some in-car video with the new auto-x tires and AST suspension on. I love that little track, even if it is a bit bumpy these days (not that we'll notice much). We'll post up more data and vids shortly after. The first official 2011 NASA Texas track event is in 3 weeks, at MSR-Houston, and there's a Pro Solo and SCCA National Tour in Texas coming up rather quickly. I haven't even bought my "now STX legal?!" giant rear wing & splitter, or nasty full length headers yet, either. Lots to do!

Cheers,

[Tjabo]

Re: Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 - auto-x/track build

It's kind of a sick thought in light of how nice those calipers are, but I've successfully ground some down with an angle grinder to make clearance before when I wasn't pleased with the other options. THAT is extrordinarily ghetto, but you guys could mill them down and re-coat them instead!

Oh, and in the name of car lightness, you can definitely benefit from some aluminum exhaust from what ever point you're comfortable with it (in terms of temperature creep back from the header outlets/cat outlets), rearward. Serious weight to be saved there, and I know there are people making up custom mufflers out of aluminum too, although I don't know how many pounds are really saved by those. . .

[altiain]

Re: Vorshlag 2011 Mustang GT 5.0 - auto-x/track build

Mazda uses this same pattern, that figures. It seems all 5 lugs are this size, except GM and Porsche.

Sipe has an 18x10.5" SSR, eh? Hmm... can you find out more? Size and backspacing? I don't have Sipe's contact info, and with him being in STX... don't know if he'd want to share. Not like we'll be a threat, but you know.

I asked McCall what he had on his RX8... he can't remember. It was an RPF1 and we think it was an 18x10 or 18x9.5"? He's going to go back and see if he can find out.

Thanks,

Had, not has. These were used in his aborted STU buildup. He's sold them off now that he's running in STX. I don't have an email address for him, but you can find him under the user name TeamRX8 on SCCAForums or RX8Club.com. I'm sure he'd be willing to share, since you won't be using those wheels in STX anyway.

I'd be willing to bet that McCall had 18x9.5s. These are a popular, off-the-shelf no brainer fit for the RX-8 that don't even require a fender roll.