July 9, 2007

[hancheyb]

Re: July 9, 2007

Good points but:
- never before has BMW tried to play with a V8 in the $60K+ range against a vette.
- never before has the Corvette been a super-car killer at the same price point.

I also agree that we are definitely not the target market. At that price point though, I wonder who is? Most people in that range either want a full p1mp sedan or a true sports car. The new M3 is neither. I also bet they will canabolize a lot of sales from the M6.

I don't think anything has changed. The Corvette has always been the best bang for the buck with near-supercar performance, granted it HAS supercar performance now. The M3 has never been a true sports car nor P!mp sedan. They sold 35k E36 M3s and 45k (more expensive) E46 M3s. I don't think this will slow them down coming out with an even MORE expensive E92.

I would argue that people that want an E92 M3 don't consider Corvette. It just isn't "their thing". Again, we are not those people. People that buy the M6 want $100k exclusivity, different people there as well.

On a side note, we stayed at a nice hotel downtown and went to dinner at a NICE steak place this weekend. There were 2 Bentleys, several Maseratis, GT2s, a Rolls (owner of Lenscrafter's daily driver they said), various other European cars. THOSE people buy M6s and M3s. They wouldn't dare show up in "just a Corvette". Funny thing is, the 20 year old valets always go BAT SH!T when I pull up in the STI. That thing is SO SWEET! Cracks me up every time.

[Redwood]

Re: July 9, 2007

Good points but:
- never before has BMW tried to play with a V8 in the $60K+ range against a vette.
- never before has the Corvette been a super-car killer at the same price point.

I also agree that we are definitely not the target market. At that price point though, I wonder who is? Most people in that range either want a full p1mp sedan or a true sports car. The new M3 is neither. I also bet they will canabolize a lot of sales from the M6.

Actually, I hear the new M3 sedan will be announced toward the end of the year and available here 4Q 2008. The convertible will be out around then too. Talk about your pimps...

[Redwood]

Re: July 9, 2007

I don't think anything has changed. The Corvette has always been the best bang for the buck with near-supercar performance, granted it HAS supercar performance now. The M3 has never been a true sports car nor P!mp sedan. They sold 35k E36 M3s and 45k (more expensive) E46 M3s. I don't think this will slow them down coming out with an even MORE expensive E92.

I would argue that people that want an E92 M3 don't consider Corvette. It just isn't "their thing". Again, we are not those people. People that buy the M6 want $100k exclusivity, different people there as well.

On a side note, we stayed at a nice hotel downtown and went to dinner at a NICE steak place this weekend. There were 2 Bentleys, several Maseratis, GT2s, a Rolls (owner of Lenscrafter's daily driver they said), various other European cars. THOSE people buy M6s and M3s. They wouldn't dare show up in "just a Corvette". Funny thing is, the 20 year old valets always go BAT SH!T when I pull up in the STI. That thing is SO SWEET! Cracks me up every time.

Excellent point and funny about the STI. In the day when an Accord LX V6 costs almost $30K, I'm not sure we can expect an M3 for the same price it was back in the '90s (base on my '99 was not near $35K though). Not to say the new M3 is a bargain, but if you consider there will be an E90 sedan M3, $60K isn't too much when the Audi RS4 with more weight and roughly the same power is $70K. From what I understand, even the target demo for the 335i coupe is a 45yo male with an income more than most of ours. Yep, 1-series it is.

[hancheyb]

Re: July 9, 2007

I think all this says is:

Why buy a C6 ZO6 or E92 M3 when you can buy an E36 with a LS6 for less than HALF?

Built yourself is probably 1/3?

For $80k, we'll build you a track P!mp car and a street P!mp car. haha

[McCall]

Re: July 9, 2007

At 60k vs 95k, 400hp vs 500hp, prolly not so much.

I read the M3 will have 420. So oh yea, that $437.50 per hp is really worth it. Don't forget that extra weight was well.

Let's just wait and see how the sales numbers go. I'd expect the M6 sales to fall and new M3 sales to be less than the E46 ones.

[C3]

Re: July 9, 2007

So oh yea, that $437.50 per hp is really worth it.

If you're going to argue hp/dollar you just proved Hanchey's point about the Corvette. Fact is there are $60k pimps and $100k pimps, and they're not the same group of pimps.

[McCall]

Re: July 9, 2007

If you're going to argue hp/dollar you just proved Hanchey's point about the Corvette. Fact is there are $60k pimps and $100k pimps, and they're not the same group of pimps.

Ah, you brought up the hp difference, not me

[McCall]

Re: July 9, 2007

In the day when an Accord LX V6 costs almost $30K, I'm not sure we can expect an M3 for the same price it was back in the '90s (base on my '99 was not near $35K though).

When I sold Hondas in '97, a fully loaded V6 Accord was $26k. Not much of a price change in the last 10 years...

[Redwood]

Re: July 9, 2007

When I sold Hondas in '97, a fully loaded V6 Accord was $26k. Not much of a price change in the last 10 years...

I was talking base price, but if you're going that route, my '99 (E36) M3 was missing two options (heated seats and alloy wheels) and stickered at $45K. I could've gotten it to $47K with everything.

[hancheyb]

Re: July 9, 2007

Top Accord (Hybrid) is $35k, 35% price increase over $26k
Current M3 ~$50k, new one at 35% price increase is $67.5k

[McCall]

Re: July 9, 2007

Top Accord (Hybrid) is $35k, 35% price increase over $26k
Current M3 ~$50k, new one at 35% price increase is $67.5k

Nope, your example fails. My Accord example was from '96 model year. Re-run your numbers with a '96 M3. Also, using the hybrid Accord is a bit underhanded(N/A in '96), but I'll play. According to Honda's webite, with nav it comes in at $33,685 with d/h. The top of the line EX-V6 with nav is $29,800 btw. Oh yea, the hybrid is getting dumped due to POOR sales/too expensive - http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl...1021/1530/FREE - HA!

Regardless how hard you BMW-fanboyz are trying, the new M3 is WAY overpriced for what you get and I'm betting sales will show that vs. previous models.

I like what Top Gear said. Sure they liked the way it drove. I'm sure I would too but they did add- "The interior is a bit boring, and the fuel consumption is bloody awful (on the mountain roads I managed less than 15mpg - but the engine is just so addictive). It also costs £51,000, which puts a whole lot of other dream-machinery in sight."

[hancheyb]

Re: July 9, 2007

Yawn, this has gotten so boring. The simple fact is none of us are in the market to buy a $70k sports car. None of us know what goes through the minds of those that can afford one. So arguing price jumps, interior quality, etc really does no justice to how this car will sell.

Those with the means will buy $70k sports cars just because they can. They don't care about gas mileage. They care what Buffy will say when it pulls up at the country club. Or their parents want to make sure they have a nice car at college. Granted, there are a select few first time buyers that aren't like this, but THAT is BMW's target audience. That is who gets a BMW into the hands of second and third owners of these cars.

[Redwood]

Re: July 9, 2007

Ok, how about average new car selling price according to NADA jumping from $22,000 (1996) to $28,451 (2006) 29.3%? 1996 to 2006 M3 price jump is 25.5%. Ok that doesn't help hehe.

This is a semi-suspect method, but if you take the official announced price of the M3 in UK and compare it to a 335i coupe in the UK as a percentage comparison(direct exchange rates offer NO comparison), the percentage increase of the M3 over the 335i Coupe there is 41.5%. That would put it at $58,875 here. On the other hand, some leaked info that managed to nail ALL of the E92 M3 specs/options before it came out also listed the U.S. price at $53,975. I'm not sure what to believe, but it's a bit silly arguing the price where there is no price yet, just guesses. As a side note, using the same method, the 135i will be $34K based on German pricing hehe. I really hope it's around there, because when you compare getting a 135i for ~$35K to a $33.5K STI, I don't think it's a bad deal (especially with included maintenance/wear item replacement). BMW will probably screw us though because they know enthusiasts will want it and they'll price it at $40K.

The M3 will never be a "good price" for power/performance figures when you compare it to a Corvette (which is the case for most sports cars). That was true even in the E36 M3 days. It's not always about balls out track performance for everybody. Some people like all-around balance, yes some people like to just pimp, some people (like me) like something in which they can actually fit, or even carry more than one passenger. McCall, how about you as an example? How come you don't drive a '97 C5 for work instead of the E36 M3? It's got more power and is faster.

[McCall]

Re: July 9, 2007

McCall, how about you as an example? How come you don't drive a '97 C5 for work instead of the E36 M3? It's got more power and is faster.

hehe, good try. I need to have a 4 seater/4-door vehicle because on numerious occasions I need to take 2+ people to lunch/meetings, etc. I bet it would be sweet to take a C5 on long road trips though!

Ok, I'm done. Time will only tell who is right and who is wrong here.

[Teucci]

Re: July 9, 2007

Then finance the other $10K I guess hehe. Just teasing, but the sticker is $70K now. A bargain for the performance, even if most of us can't afford it.

True... but most likely the GM dealers will be more apt to deal on them than the M3s at BMW dealers...

I can see it now.. $4000 cash back or 0% for 120 months on Z06 corvette