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Unread 12-20-2011, 12:14 PM
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Default LeMons 15 hour Enduro, ECR, Dec 12-18, 2011 - WDMS

Event Review: I am doing this write-up more for my own "memory preservation" than for any need of "racing glory", so if you get bored reading about a crap can Camaro, don't read this race report. At best maybe a dozen people I know will ever read this, or care, but anyway - here's the write-up on the latest LeMons race I drove in, once again at ECR. If you learn anything useful by reading this... I am truly sorry, heh.



Pictures! http://vorshlag.smugmug.com/Racing-E...ns-ECR-121711/

I was asked in November if I wanted to co-drive in Costas' "WitchDoctorMotorSports (WDMS) + Bikini Racer + Team 4Max" Camaro at the final LeMons event of 2011, held at Eagles Canyon Raceway last weekend (Dec 17-18, 2011). Apparently they couldn't find anyone better to drive with them, so I got tagged. This 1982-ish Camaro has been run in several LeMons/ChumpCar events previously, with its stock radiator and stock exhaust manifolded 305 V8 it doesn't get a second look from the BS judges. It definitely "looks the part" of a $500 car, and with recent addition of some Dunlop tires mounted on large but cheap C4 Corvette wheels (neither of which ding the "$500 LeMons budget", same goes for safety gear + cage + brakes) it would hopefully raise the performance level over the previous 235mm tires on 16x8" wheels. And it did - this car had lots of grip.


Here the car is (I think its called "Bic"?), in all its glory!

This car really is a $500 LeMons car, unlike some of the cars at the top of the time sheets which had curiously well running engines, good looking bodywork, smooth suspensions, EFI, ABS and all sorts of other performance enhancing goodies.

This Camaro had none of those things.

No front bumper cover (crash damage), beat-to-crap fenders (crash damage), mis-matched doors, lots of purely random colors, some mesh screen in front of the radiator, and a roof covering for the missing T-tops made from galvanized sheet metal, salvaged from an old A/C duct. Very believable as a $500 investment (minus safety gear).



Its a junk yard dawg, and proud of it! If it were parked in my front lawn and I was told "its free!", I would call the cops. That's sort of a good litmus test - if you cannot give a car away, its a true LeMons car.

The CrapCan racing philosophy for Costas and his car are: keep it at a very believable $500 budget, always make laps, drive long stints (2-3 hours), preserve the car, and always finish. And that philosophy took a car with the 19th fastest lap last weekend to a 6th overall finish out of 57 cars. I will expound on that a bit more here, of course.



Went over to Costas' house to help with some last minute prep on Wednesday night before the event and a lot happened. Cody also stopped by and together we swapped the doors from another Camaro he has (the old ones were "the wrong color"), hammered out the worst of the previous damage on both front fenders (even though CertiFit $26 fenders are available 5 minutes form his house - just sayin'!), and they swapped on the CraigsList'd 17x9.5" C4 Corvette "saw blade" wheels, fixed some of the wheel rubbing (the rest sorted itself out during the race), and pulled off the 80 pound rear hatch glass (the fuel cell enclosure is under there). The rest of the necessary repairs were fiddled with and fixed on Friday out at the track, with Mike, Ron and Costas wrenching and making laps in it off and on all day.



So at the ECR "LeMons test day" on Friday before the event these three guys fixed the exhaust (it only fell off 3 times that day, but stayed on for the 15 hours of a race), made some laps, tested the new wheels/tires (they make some grip), and worked on the carburetor a bit. With a hammer. They said it had a stumble past 90% throttle, but it was still plenty quick if you kept it out of the end of the throttle travel, and it was much improved after hammering the metering rods back straight.



So Saturday I get to the track at 7 am and they are prepping the car. Costas got a primo spot to park his big 28' enclosed trailer right by the tech shed, on the "top level" of paved paddock. We were 75 feet from the track! Nice. Of the many times I've raced at ECR I've never pitted that close to the track and clubhouse. I immediately went on a fuel run with all 5 of his fuel jugs tossed into my truck. Bombed over the Valero in Sanger, TX (25 mile round trip) and filled all five jugs. That got the fuel cell filled with a little left over, so I made another run later that day, and we filled up 4 cans with 93 octane from the on-site fueling station (@ $4.40/gallon - ouch!) when we were short on time. Lesson was learned - don't ever buy fuel at the track!



On Sunday I brought four of my own fuel jugs and filled up all 9 jugs (45 gallons for you bad at math) in Denton, on my way to the track, and with 89 octane @ $3.06/gallon. Lots of $ saved if you avoid using the on-site fuel pumps at ECR (and they ran out of 93 octane anyway, like they always do on LeMons weekends; 100 octane was $9/gallon and they sold plenty of that when the 93 ran out). In case you wondered, making fuel runs is one of the more time consuming duties during a LeMons race, if the on sight fuel situation is as poor as it is at ECR. 15 hours of running anything will gobble up some fuel, then factor in a messed up carb and you're going to have a hefty fuel bill (fuel costs this time nearly matched the $500 entry fee).



First driver out (I think?) was Cody Case, who was struggling with the carburetor issues. It was doing the dreaded "QuadraBog!" with more than 20% throttle, so he drove it by barely using the gas and staying out of the secondaries, and short-sifting super early (well before the 4200 rpm shift light). That made for better fuel mileage, even with a fubar carb. Lap times were a bit slower driving this way, but he moved around the track well, drove 100% clean and made a 2+ hour stint without issue. The top 5 cars were all running 2:15s or quicker by then, so with 2:20-2:30 laps we were losing time on track and I think we were down by about 7 or 8 laps after his stint. I hopped in next and we were in 11th, and after a handful of laps of getting passed on the straights driving with the 20% throttle trick, I got passed by one too many Hondas and Miatas under power. Some of these same cars I was re-passing in the corners on the next lap. GRRR...

I was not happy with the few lap times they were calling out to me (2:22 and worse?!), having just made tons of laps at ECR the weekend before in my wife's street car in the 2:03 range - a car she drove to the track in her daily driving set-up, putting two tanks of fuel through it on track that day with 2 drivers beating on it, and drove it home. How could a lighter, V8 powered Camaro on almost identical sized and compound tires be almost 20 seconds a lap slower??? I was getting stuck behind the slowest of the slow LeMons cars, and losing crazy time in the corners because I couldn't get ahead of anything on the straights.

I admit it - I got more than a little pissed. I had no way to communicate my frustration to the team (we had 1-way radios only all weekend) so I tried some different throttle methods, and managed to get the back two barrels on the carb to finally open by flat footing the gas pedal SUPER EARLY in the turns. As soon as I got off the brakes I would MAT the throttle, way earlier than normal for ECR. The carb would stumble, the engine would almost die, but it was in the slowest part of the turn so it didn't matter. Then right when I'd normally be applying the throttle, driving any normal car at ECR, the carb would light up and all 150 horses would kick in! WEE!

Driving like that let the old V8 engine rev up to the lofty 4200 rpm redline (sarcasm), where I'd shift to 4th on the straights, and keep the pedal on the flooorboard. I started pushing the braking zones and kept my cornering speeds as high as before. Still drove the whole course in 3rd-4th gear, as I was told to stay out of 2nd to preserve the trans. I'd just use as much throttle as the car could take without stalling (about 80% once it got past the initial HEAVY stumble at 20%). It worked, and my lap times dropped to a best of 2:17, with a string of 2:18 and 2:19 laps. I started re-passing a lot of cars that got around me early in my stint, and even hung with the top 5 cars for several laps, and unlapped us from a couple of them. When i pulled in our team was now in 7th place, from catching up a bit + the longer stints we made + bad luck for other cars dropping back.

The brakes felt great for stock 10" front 3rd gen Camaro discs (good pads only), if it wasn't axle hopping out back (it was on bumpy corners, so I braked earlier in those). The struts and shocks were all completely blown out, so you felt every bump on track, and the front end bottomed out several times in each corner. The whole front of the car porpoised up and down about a foot traveling down the faster parts of the straights - I guess the brick-like aero front end coupled with the bumpy track, higher speeds, and blown struts all set-up perfectly for boing! boing! boing! I was told, "Hey - its a LeMons thing".



After I finished my stint I came into the pits and the crew was there to help with the fuel stop and driver change (thanks Mike and Ryan!), I got out and went over the wall for a second, to lift my visor because it was fogging up. I was getting warm in that car, despite the cool ambient temps. After the first fuel jug was in the tank I hopped back over the wall, handed them another jug, set-up the drip pan under the car (fuel spills are a big no-no!), and helped with the refuelling, then getting WDMS/Camaro LeMons veteran Ron Miller belted into the car and his earbuds connected to the on-board radio harness. Fishing the latch-style 5-point belts together is trickier than cam-locks and nearly impossible to do by the driver, blindly. With either the HANS or a neck donut brace on (either is acceptable for LeMons - I hate the neck turning limitations of a HANS) the driver cannot move his head down enough to see the latch part of the belts (that's the point of these head and neck restraints - to limit over-travel of the neck in a crash, and prevent tearing your spinal cord out from your brain), so it takes an outside helper to get the driver belted in once he's in the seat. With two helpers, one on each side of the car, it goes even faster and you can get the lower belts TIGHT first, then the shoulder belts last. Our stops were about 5 minutes on average - there were teams making both faster and slower pit stops out there.



Me driving with the super early/heavy throttle use apparently burned up a bit more fuel than the tip-toe gas pedal technique. By using fuel mileage calcs from the first stint, and the lack of communication back to the team when I was driving Flat Out ("because that's how I always drive... FLAT OUT!"), we mis-calculated the refueling after my stint. I got on the radio to work "spotting" up on the hill and was coaching Cody to "MASH THAT THROTTLE!", early and often, and his lap times dropped, too. Well so Ron ran his 2:15 hour stint, and with he and I driving lead-footted the car run a tick short of fuel towards the end... ran out of fuel with about 5 or so laps to go for Day 1. Like "bring it in on the hook" out of gas. Doh! We scrambled, threw 5 gallons in it, and he went back out for more laps. We finished the first day (7 hours on track) in an amazing 8th place, so not too bad considering the carb issues and running out of fuel on track. No black flag penalties, yay!



That night at 5 pm, after the race was stopped for the night (first 7 hours), Ron brought the car into the pits and the team attacked it. After Mike played with the carb some more, he was re-tightening the exhaust and noticed the trans crossmember hanging down a few inches on one side. Oops! Two bolts were gone, and the drivetrain was dangling at a funny angle. No wonder the shifter moved around a foot when it axle-hopped under braking. Somebody said "Its just LeMons!" and they all laughed. Costas found some bolts and put it back together. I'm gonna buy him a stick of Red Loctite for Christmas...



Ty and I hammered the crap out of the front fenders where the bottomed out suspension let the bigger tires smash into an already beat-up RF fender. We "pit-flared it", and after 10 minutes of us swinging a 5 pound sledgehammer and block of 2x4 lumbar acting as a dolly, it actually looked better than when we started. "LeMons repair!"

Tires were checked and wear was pretty damned good, with the RF tire taking a little more abuse (CCW track layout), so each tire was swapped front-to-rear. Ryan from Vorshlag along with Ty, Mike, Ron, Costas and Cody pulled the wheels and tires, then checked and re-torqued everything they could get to on the suspension. I had to scoot out a little early to head to a Christmas Party (mother-in-laws) and left at 5:50 pm, while the rest of the crew bugged out about 6:30. Surprisingly little else was broken after 7 hours of racing, and after a relatively easy post-race check-up the car was put inside the trailer.

So Day 2 we again wanted to make only 2 stops, to preserve down time (pit stops were taking about 5 minutes). It was scheduled to be 7.5 of driving on Day 2, and since Costas had sacrificed driving on Day 1 to make it a 3 driver day, Ron decided to take off early and go see his family, so Costas started us off driving a long-ish 2:45 hour stint. He stuck with the 20% throttle trick and got the car really moving, cutting consistent 2:20 laps and even a few 2:19s, being thrifty on fuel usage. He was using every inch of track and letting the added grip and good brakes get as much out of a lap as possible, and short-shifting and using 4th gear a LOT. He had some fuel starvation issues 10 minutes before he brought it into the pits. Our team was shown in 5th place (?!), almost one minute ahead of the 6th place "Miagra" Miata. The Miata could run 2:15-2:18 laps with some of their drivers, and they had won with it before, but with fewer stops and 2:20 average laps we could possibly pull off a 5th place for the weekend. We'd need some luck, and no mistakes.



During the pit stop the team dumped 4 cans of fuel into the fuel cell, then Cody hopped on track in 6th place and did much of the same driving on his stint. He also managed good , quick laps and a few 2:19s, never using much throttle and short shifting. We knew with a hurt carburetor it would be tough to eek out 2:30 hour stints, even driving so tame, but he did it. We had 5-6 laps on 7th place by this time, and about 13 laps down on the leaders. Excellent work, and I was ready to stop spotting up on the hill after about 3 hours - I was freezing up there in all of that wind. Ty took over spotting for me, thanks!



My wife Amy came to the track while Cody was driving, so she and I went for one last fuel jug filling run into town, I grabbed some food, and got back in plenty of time for my driving stint at the end of the day. We refueled after Cody came in, I hopped in and went out with Amy spotting on the radio. I could hear her and signal back with manual talk clicks only - we never had 2 way comms all weekend other than these crude 1/2/3 click responses from the driver. She was letting me know about flags, was reading me times from the Race Keeper app (MyLaps real time data), which I find hugely helpful. I ran mostly 2:20 laps, after being told to stay off the throttle to extend our driving stints and fuel windows. I had one more 2:17 in there, and a few other teens, but mostly 2:20-2:22 laps, short shifting a lot. About 10 laps into this stint there was an "incident...

continued below

Last edited by Fair!; 01-02-2012 at 03:52 PM.
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Unread 12-20-2011, 12:14 PM
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Default Re: LeMons 15 hour Enduro, Dec 12-18, 2011 - WDMS

continued from above

So going into T1 there was some debris, from cars spinning across the gravel and slinging it on track. It happens a lot. So The T1 corner station had a debris flag out, like they had for 2 previous laps. You can pass - its not a yellow - but one of the drivers thought otherwise. I was coming up on this car, who was going slow and wide into 1, so I took the inside line. Needed to get the pass done here in T1-T2 if possible, so as not to be stuck behind them in the tighter T3-T4-T5 complex. I figured he saw this mess of a Camaro gaining on him in the straights and was going wide to let me by.

Well apparently he didn't see me or thought it was a yellow and I would NOT pass there, and as I'm about halfway inside him in T1 he cut across the front of me - I stab the brakes but the LF fender of the Camaro just clipped their RR fender. His car spun and stalled, and the Camaro came to a stop and then promptly died. I spent a few seconds restarting the car, meanwhile Amy is chatting away about my previous lap time (a 2:22), and Costas was chatting about something else, yadda yadda yadda. All tying up the radio. I figured out they didn't see the accident! I knew I'd get a black flag, but we had our "one free black flag" unused so it could be a quick stop. Or not, if the random judging became d1ck-ish like it sometimes does (and did again).

So I'm frantically sending out my "SOS" call of 3 clicks when the radio was quiet, between their random chatter that lap. Amy doesn't know what 3 clicks means, and asks somebody else on our channel in the trailer. They said... uh, start asking questions. So Amy started asking me what was wrong. She hadn't been here the day before to learn our crude click-click radio "language" protocol from the driver, so she asked if I was out of fuel, "no" (2 clicks), then if the car was OK, and I said...well I needed to come in so I replied "no" (2 clicks). She asked if I needed to come in, and I said "yes!!!" (1 click). By then I'd already passed start-finish and got the black flag I was expecting, so I acknowledged that to the starter and planned my in-lap. Amy is still asking questions and I'm trying to tell her by a freaging crude MORSE CODE that I have a black flag and HAD to come in!!!

She asks if I can make another lap or two, and I said "no!" (as loudly as you can make two clicks!!!). Do you HAVE to come in this lap? "yes!" (1 click plus a stream of profanity to nobody that can hear me!) Somebody else finally cuts in and asks if I'm coming in for a flag problem, "Yes!" right as I'm coming off the track. Not having 2-way communication SUCKS in an endurance race, by the way. So some of the team meanders over to the tech shed as I come in, and the other car I tagged is already there (they came in on the first lap after). I'm trying NOT to get out of the car, as I know how freagin long it takes to re-do these damned belts, and I try to explain to the judges as calmly and politely as I can (you have to kiss their asses or you get massively delayed) that this guy "I hit" just ran over the front of my car after leaving the door WIDE open, and giving me what I thought was an obvious cue to pass him into T1. The other guy is now ranting about "there was a waving yellow at Start/Finish and T1!", which there wasn't, and I said "No, it was a debris flag, and you can pass under that." The judges didn't seem to know the actual flag situation, or to care, and told us to get out of the car and prepare to take judgement. This means - a huge delay.

Costas told them this was our first black flag, which it was, and we were promised "one free black flag per day", which we'd seen other cars get and quickly get back on track. But the LeMons head poo-bah Jay says he doesn't care, starts giving him sh!t, and lies about an incident the day before. Costas wisely extracted himself from that brewing situation and walked away. The more I do LeMons events the LESS AND LESS I can stand the guy that runs the series. I do not care for Jam Lamm and I will likely never do another LeMons event because of him. There's more I could say, but I'll leave it at that.

So we lost some more track time and laps while we had to do a lame punishment dance for the judges wearing their little gowns, then I finally got back into the car, got the belts re-done with massive help from someone that could thread the 5 pieces of harness into the latch I couldn't see, and somebody who had never touched the radio harnesses hooked up the cables to my helmet & earbuds, so then I had no more radio commutations in either direction for the last 2 hours of my drive. I got back out on course not knowing what place I was in (still 6th), how close we were to 5th (too far back now to matter), and how close 7th place was to me (turns out they were many laps down). So I kept trying to click-click the radio, waving frantically that I had no comms, but I got nothing. I unplugged and replugged everything I could see (which is about nothing with the head restraint on, so I had adjusted the mirrors so I could see the cables), then after too many laps not paying 100% attention to my driving I finally gave up on the radio.

No clock in the car, no comms at all, no pit board, and nobody signaling me. Hmm, this is a pickle. So not being able to judge my time lost in the pits and having lost track of my lap count, I was out there pretty much flying blind. I knew I had to make it to the end of the race, but when was that? A freagin sundial on the hood would have been helpful at that moment. I assumed I was still safe in 6th place, but that was a wild guess, and I drove the car gently to try to get it to the finish in that position I hoped we still occupied. With a longer stint planned than the previous day and the fuel situation precarious from the day before, I was told to short-shift and SLOW DOWN my lap times from Day 1 to Day 2, and I did this more and and more each lap. The sun was getting lower but I had no idea how close to the 4:30 pm end time we were, and just kept pounding out laps and hoping for the best.

Eventually I pulled the radio out of its holster, unhooked all of the harnesses, and held it under my helmet and yelled "I've lost all comms!". I couldn't ear anything from the radio, with my earbuds still in and helmet on, so I didn't know if the radio itself was dead or what. Towards the end I did that a few more times and said "Car is OK but I cannot hear you!" Later they said they heard me loud and clear, so I should have thought about trying that right after I came out and maybe asked for a pit board update now and then. Hindsight.

Without any radio traffic, clock or pit board signals this stint seemed to carry on for days... I had wild visions of everyone on the team leaving the track, going out for a nice warm dinner, and leaving me out there for hours and hours. Crazy, I know, but I was dying to know what time it was (lesson learned: I will never enter an endurance race car without a watch or clock of some kind on me).

Towards the end of my stint (I figured that out later) the car started to fuel starve in right hand turns. Uh oh. I'm in real trouble here. So then I started using 5th gear on the straights, and shifting SUPER early, and using 10-15% throttle. Again, I had no idea if I had 5 more laps or 50, having lost all sense of time. I was panicking a little, trying the radio over and over, re-wiring all the radio cabling from the driver's seat while still driving as fast as I could, and my very real fear now was that I'd run out of fuel on track, nobody on the team would see me, and by the time I got towed-in they wouldn't have anyone suited up or any fuel jugs filled in the hot pits (the only place we could refuel) and it would compound our delay further. Amy was still up on the hill trying to talk to me on the radio the whole time, but I had no clue.

Then, after what seemed like 50 hours of driving, I saw the one thing I was looking for all day - the starter reaching down and holding up one finger. ONE. MORE. LAP. Halleluiah! So I knew then I had enough fuel for one more fast lap, and I was gong to re-pass some of the slower traffic that I had just let go by me, in case any of them had maybe jumped into 6th place. I had NO idea about anything at this point. But then I got caught behind 4 jackasses in SHO's driving FOUR ABREAST around the whole final lap as some sort of "parade lap". Oh boy. I was swerving, trying to pass this wall of crapcans, but the outside two cars kept swerving violently and trying to put me into the grass. They were driving super slow and determined to not let anyone past their wall of Tauruses. The racing going on behind them did not matter. Roll eyes...

So after that interminable lap the checker finally flew, and it was over. I had enough fuel to make it back around to the pits, too. I got out, they took some pictures, I thanked the team, and Amy and I GTFO.



Some of the funnier cars above. The Monza was hilarious - "Speedy Monzales", and the horn played the Speedy Gonzales cartoon theme song every time they drove out of the pits. Car was a turd, super slow, but kept making laps and was hilarious. It was the one car that always made me smile when I saw it. The other car above was a take on the Beetle's Yellow Subarine, with an Alpha Romeo rust covered shell smashed onto a Miata chassis. The blue Mustang II was just flat out terrible, but it wouldn't break, and they were pounding out 3+ minute laps all day both days. Determined but sick individuals!



The guys from TrackDog Racing, a Miata race prep shop in Garland, gave us hell all weekend in their "Miagra" Miata (one of several "Viagra themed" cars). They won the April event here at ECR and were no strangers to LeMons, and I think they had a best lap of 2:14s? I had fun playing with their drivers during both of my stints, and on Day 1 (before I was put on 20% throttle rations) I was able to keep pace and even pass this car a couple of times. Good fun, good racing. Without our extra stops (fuel and black flag) and a bit of luck we might just have eeked out 5th place from them, but they would not give up and kept pace enough to finish ahead of us by about 2 laps. They earned that 5th place.

Thanks again to everyone on the WDMS team, and to Costas specifically who let me drive this time. Massive thanks to the volunteer crew that helped keep this car fueled, running and in once piece: Mike, Ty, Ryan, Anna, and Amy. I learned a lot and had some fun times in the car.

Cheers,

Last edited by Fair!; 12-20-2011 at 06:56 PM.
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Unread 12-21-2011, 09:44 AM
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Default Re: LeMons 15 hour Enduro, ECR, Dec 12-18, 2011 - WDMS

They posted results right after my last edit on the 2 posts above:

So our Team 4Max-WDMS-BikiniRacer Camaro made a total of 320 laps around the 2.5 mile ECR course, 22 laps down to the winner, covering 768 miles of racing. Our best lap was a 2:17.62 (65.4 mph avg) made on lap 79, after which I was told to "SLOW DOWN!". It appears we were no threat to the Team Miagra Miata towards the end, as they were 9 laps ahead of us at the finish, but they were only 1:57 behind 4th place, the second Hong Norrth MX3. Can you believe that our team's rolling wreck of a Camaro was ahead of this 5th place team earlier on Sunday, and they were that close to 4th?? The winning Hong Norrth MX3 made 342 laps with a best lap of 2:13.312 (this was their 5th LeMons win in 2011). Again, our team's best lap was only 19th fastest overall.

The best overal lap was 2:10.985 (68.7 mph avg) made on lap 288 by team "Cardorks" in an BMW 325 (E30) "Artsy Car" (it looked suspiciously similar to our E30 GRM Challenge winning art car - but the graphics were 1/2 assed, at best). They finished down in 12th place.

There are 3 classes in LeMons - Class A, B and C. Costas was told at Tech that we could run this Camaro in Class B with a 10 lap penalty, and we would have still won B by quite a bit from the looks of it. Oh well, nobody cares about Class B or C much. Costas was in it to win it, and we stuck in A.

See ya.
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Unread 12-21-2011, 10:01 AM
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Default Re: LeMons 15 hour Enduro, ECR, Dec 12-18, 2011 - WDMS

Costas poured over the MyLaps stats and produced this:

Quote:
Well, the laps chart is up on mylaps.

1-45 = Cody (45 laps)
best lap this stint 2:23.5
including a red flag

46-96 = Fair (51 laps)
best lap this stint 2:17.6
with one other in the 2:18s

97-152 = Ron (56 laps)
including a stop for a fuel splash
best lap this stint 2:19.5
with two laps in the 2:19s

++++++++++++++++

153-207 = Costas (55 laps)
including a red flag
best lap this stint 2:19.0
with several laps int the 2:19s

208-261 = Cody (54 laps)
best lap this stint 2:18.602
with another 2:18.604
and several others in the 2:18s

262-320 = Fair (59 laps)
including a black flag
best lap this stint 2:17.8
with another 2:17
and a few 18s and 19s



TOTAL LAPS
Costas = 55
Miller = 56
Case = 99
Fair = 110


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Cody started in 29th and pitted in 10th!!!

Fair started in 17th and pitted in 6th!!

Ron started in 11th and pitted in 6th!!

Costas started in 7th and pitted in 5th!!

Cody started in 6th and pitted in 6th!!

Fair started in 6th and finished in 6th!!

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++

Stats....wheee

Costas
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Unread 12-21-2011, 10:54 AM
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Default Re: LeMons 15 hour Enduro, ECR, Dec 12-18, 2011 - WDMS

Nick looked at his CMC laps at his last event at ecr and with a healthy 230RWHP and 300RWTQ (he was right at the limit) and on real r-comps and with serious springs and shocks that work they were only running ~2:10s. And two years ago the track was MUCH smoother.

I think us running 2.18s-2.20s on average means we were getting a bit more than 30% throttle out of a no-compression small block with a quadrabog.

But yes, with real fuel delivery a 2:13 could have been easily had by all. I'll have TBI on it and new OE replacement shocks/struts too. We'll keep swinging the bat.

Costas
cars and such...
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Unread 12-22-2011, 02:51 PM
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Default Re: LeMons 15 hour Enduro, ECR, Dec 12-18, 2011 - WDMS

Costas,

Sounds like you're well on your way to building a pretty decent platform! Best of luck! I really appreciate the "keep swinging the bat" attitude. Racing has far too few people with that mantra.
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Unread 12-22-2011, 03:49 PM
1slowcrx
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Default Re: LeMons 15 hour Enduro, ECR, Dec 12-18, 2011 - WDMS

Terry,

Being a large parts distributor and "ambassador" to the sport as some people call you, your attitude is quite surprising. Whether it be...

*The plague of ST Civics winning in the faster STX class

*How most known ST tires somehow don't work?!

*How STU is nothing but cheaters

*How DSP BMW's and the M54 suck

*How you assume the winning LeMons cars aren't truly $500

*How Jay purposely douched up your black flag

*How unfair the NASA TT classing structure is

*Etc etc etc
(I can link examples of all the above listed)

... It's never your fault, or "just one of those things". You cast blame and spread dribble most places you show up on the internet (I've been told you're a great guy in person and missed getting to meet you in the STX grid in Lincoln). Costas had way more invested in the ECR race weekend, went through the same issues yet somehow has the "keep swinging" attitude instead of bitching about event organizers, other drivers, etc.

It's disappointing to see how your noise to signal ratio has tipped over the past couple of years.

I mean no disrespect or ill-intentions, just a heads up that more and more people within the southeast auto-x and road racing community are starting to recognize the evolution to douche canoe. While I will continue to put Vorshlag plates on my BMWs and patronize your business, more and more of my peers are shying away based on your presence online.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck and hope you can right the ship.

Edit for signature:

Stephen I.
ST Civic #98

Last edited by 1slowcrx; 12-22-2011 at 03:53 PM.
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Unread 12-22-2011, 07:46 PM
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Default Re: LeMons 15 hour Enduro, ECR, Dec 12-18, 2011 - WDMS

Wow, this is a big one. I get these types of comments every 6-12 months - should just sit down and make a good post as a general reply, and link to it. Here goes...

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slowcrx View Post
Being a large parts distributor and "ambassador" to the sport as some people call you, your attitude is quite surprising. Whether it be...
First of all, you are right on all of these counts. I'm kind of an a-hole online. Not sure who you are, but I respect your opinions.

Not everyone likes my "criticism" of things, which I understand, but I feel there is a need for it - that's why I do it. I don't write dozens of letters to the SCCA, hundreds of posts a year, and I rally people online to do the same just to see myself type. I feel there is a method to my madness, and like it or not there has been positive change that happened that I agreed with, shouted about, and maybe... just maybe had a tiny small part in helping make happen. Maybe my ranting had some impact on this or that, or maybe not - I like to think it wasn't all for nothing.

Let me try to explain.

First, I don't try to be an ambassador to any sport, be it SCCA, NASA BMWCCA, or especially the 24 hours of LeMons. I'm not volunteering to work these events and have turned down nominations and invitations to be a regional official numerous times, and will continue to do so. I did once help run a sports car club for many years, and set-up probably 100 autocross courses myself - thousands of hours of volunteer work. Got so burned out I quit racing for 4 years. I'm done with that, and feel I have banked enough "race group volunteer time" goodwill for one lifetime. Well, I do instruct for NASA groups, other HPDE groups, and Street Survival schools + the local Texas region's Solo school every year. That's about it, and with NASA it gets me a free day of racing, so its not all benevolent.

But yes, SCCA and NASA members do make up much of my customer base, so I sell to a lot of these groups' customers, advertise in their magazines and on their forums, and even participate in event sponsorship with the SCCA on various levels (regional, divisional, national) - to the tune of several thousand dollars of free money year. I give them money to help keep their events running, and help keep racers' costs low - so I'm not all bad, as much as some people like to think. What I'm saying is I've paid my dues, and still keep writing those checks.

I am also a competitor in many series, and pay my membership and entry fees to run their races. That alone is enough justification to voice my opinions, I feel. If you are a member and a racer, you should have a hand in the rules for the racing you do.

So yes, I point out things publicly when I see events or rules that I don't agree with, in all 3 of those sports. I try to look at things from the big picture, which is often lost in the details by rules makers. How will this rule impact costs, competitiveness, fairness, safety, and how does it fit the current "aftermarket supply", how does it impact very common modifications or popular chassis? Sometimes there are rules makers that are myopic, too self-serving, or just technically inept. Or just plain wrong. Nobody is perfect.

I always try to point out the "common sense" solutions. Sometimes I'm alone in my ranting, but many times I get common public support, and many times I get phone calls from members and/or rules makers that agree with me and ask for data to back up my talk. Which I am always willing to contribute. I've discretely sent more data to more committees than I can count.

As a member, competitor, engineer, and event sponsor I have a right to say the things I do. Sometimes I feel duty bound to point something out. I can sometimes be in a unique position to see something nobody else has - from my decades of engineering experience, suspension design experience, from seeing various product issues, and knowing market costs. I feel obligated to point out things that are broken, defy logic, or break the rules of common sense.

My racing rules complaint outlet is the internet, and unfortunately my business is also very well known on the internet. I wish there was a way to keep the two separate, and I know some business owners have fake online accounts or never sign their name to their posts, but I'm just not going to be fake. I -always- sign my posts, letters, and will stand behind what I've written online, dating back decades. I assume every e-mail or PM is going to go public, because certain folks do not understand the word "private".

A percentage of people abhor any sort of dissent or conflict, and those types of people tend to dislike my vocal "internet dissent". They will often dislike my real life persona, too, because I will also point out BS in person, with a smile. I've been shushed at SCCA Town Hall meetings, but I will keep stepping up to that microphone as long as I'm a member, if the case warrants it. That's not going to change. If I see something FUBAR, I'm gonna say "Hey, I think that was fubar!"

There are sometimes individuals that put out a negative opinion when it comes to me or my posts, not for what I've said but because of competing business reasons. I cannot control that - it happens, oh well. You aren't paranoid if they ARE out to get you.



So let's discuss SCCA Solo first: I've been a Solo competitor since 1988, and have raced hundreds of times in dozens of regions all over the country. Every autocross club worth its salt uses the SCCA Solo classing and rules, so that one document carries a lot of weight in this country, well outside the club. SCCA Solo rules are written and tweaked mostly by committees, which are made up of volunteers, which are mostly Solo racers themselves, and all of that leads to potential flaws. Rules by committee always produce certain compromises, but you do get a lot of views and experiences, and its probably the best way to do it (rules by a lone dictator will most certainly SUCK).

As in other aspects in life, there are some key individuals that have an undue amount of influence on the committees and rules. That ain't me, BTW. Politics become involved when its a "myclass!" situation, at least it seems that way from the outside looking in.

I'm not always right, but I have been on the right side of many rules changes over the years. Some have taken decades to happen, but I remember. Then there are entire SCCA Solo categories are based on rulesets that are extremely dated, and rooted in situations stemming from the 1960s, or worse. I feel that Prepared & SP both need a major rules reboot, if not an outright merge with the XP and Street Mod classes. I've said that many times.

I've built cars for and raced in both SP and Prepared. Too much old history there, and negative momentum, and rules that don't make sense in 2011, to allow for the necessary change that has to eventually happen. I'm not alone - X Prepared was created just to fix what many racers who felt was broken in "Prepared". I was a big, early supporter of (and competitor in) XP, too. Still like the class, other than one fatal flaw ("displacement to weight" formulas and "1.4 x turbo equivalency" should have both died in the 1970s, when the FIA ditched them. The SCCA will get around to updating these things, eventually).

As much as I complain about Street Touring, it is probably getting things "the most right" of all SCCA Solo classes, and is the most relevant to the most people, and to more of my customers. I race there myself more times than not. For every person like you that speaks up against me saying "things aren't all rosy and perfect in ST classes" I get 10 calls or PMs from people thanking me for doing so. So that's not gonna change until the class rules are perfect. Which will be never.

The latest major ST re-org is a HUGE HUGE step in the right direction. Very glad it came about, just wish it had happened 4 years ago. Many of the letters I wrote and problems I pointed out, publicly and loudly, were fixed with these changes. I just felt they were long overdue. The ST aero rules (14.2.F) keep getting re-written, however. The same rule has been changed 3 times in 3 years, including just yesterday in yet another tech bulletin - which changed the actual choices for allowed aero again. That crap drives me crazy - just write the rule correctly and quit with the take-backs already.

Take-backs piss me off, because they always catch racers holding onto expensive parts that have just been deemed illegal. Parts that were legal one day that just became useless junk. Some of it is simply from "We didn't MEAN for that to ever be legal!", and from poor wording of rules. One word, hell, one letter can affect a rule. Sometimes a lawyer's or engineer's attention to detail in wording is needed.

I am also a big supporter of Street Modified, having created a very similar category/class for a non-SCCA group 2 years before the SCCA felt it was necessary. This category came about with a rules dictator back in the 1990s, which sped things up at the time but made for some fundamental compromises (a few self-serving rules and his general lack of technical experience with unfamiliar chassis at the time), but the class morphed and evolved and prospered, especially after this dictator left the sport (sorry DG, but its true). They are on the precipice in SM of making it the perfect class for most SP racers - its "that close!".

X Prepared is also a much more "modern" class - created with modern modifications in mind, more up-to-date aero knowledge, and a big dash of common sense - which needs to be the blueprint for all of Prepared, in my eyes. Its only flaw is that its trying to appeal to ALL Prepared drivers with one class, then using that damned power-to-weight and turbo forumlas. Broken, broken.

So there IS some really good change happening in SCCA Solo, some things are stalled, and some change takes much longer than it should. STU was a great class idea back in 2004, with lots of support, but it and it took 3 long years to become recognized Nationally. I railed online that this was too slow, and with 47 cars in 2005 it seemed like it more than met the requirements, way better than many established classes at the time. Look at 2011 - STR as a class got it recognized in ONE year, with a minimum number at Nats for that one time. That came about because of people like me bitching about STU taking 3 years, some arbitrary number the SEB dreamed up back then. They changed their minds, which back then were rigid and entrenched, and I'm glad they did.

There are also some people writing rules that have their own personal cars and motives in mind, and are too invested in their own racing goals, to see some things objectively. Its not all that bad, but its not perfect, either. You cannot make everyone 100% objective in any form of governance, of course. The club is made up of racers, and racers are competitive, and want to stay as competitive as they can. I get it, but I feel the need to point out examples when its holding up a certain class or necessary change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slowcrx View Post
*The plague of ST Civics winning in the faster STX class
Yes, I've said this for years. The 89-91 Civics are crazy light, and have amazingly good OEM suspensions, and do damned well despite being 1980s designs and having somewhat anemic motors. So many Honda folks like to downplay their obvious performance advantages because "they only make 110 hp!". Well, that's a load of crap. Solo has so little to do with horsepower and so much to do with "lightweight". These cars are and were overdogs in STX, and even won STU at many levels, not to mention held up dozens of cars in ST that had no prayer of being competitive there - I know, because I bought and built one of those. The drivers knew their cars were fast in several classes, and they were putting 8+ drivers into their ST Hondas and winning 4-6 classes per event in them. Contengency money, jackets, etc. That cannot go on forever before everyone gets sick of the game - not everyone wants to build or race a 1980s Civic.

I have been proved correct on my complaints again and again, and in 2011 the Civic drivers were allowed to poach the STX classes for the last time. They were so dominant that the STAC finally has restricted them to ONE class for 2012, ST, and moved damn near all other FWD 4 cylinder cars into STF. Once again, my ranting was appeased. They still have "their class", but no longer 6 easy wins.

You see, I am still pointing out their sloth-like pace right here. This was a no-brainer move kicking the Civics out of STX/R/S/U, as was the other ST re-org changes that should have happened 4 years ago. Me pointing this out is to help keep the STAC and SEB on their toes so they hopefully speed up these common sense moves in the future. Like how STR was fast tracked, unlike STU before it.

Progress.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slowcrx View Post
*How most known ST tires somehow don't work?!
Hmm, I don't know what you mean there about the ST tires - there are 5+ brands that work pretty damned well, and the differences between them are miniscule. They all keep getting faster, and softer, but they are still WAY better than the Hoosier crack pipe.

I do think there is a HUGE lemming effect in ST with regards to tires. One person does a test with one car of a certain weight and a weird tire size and 2000 people take it as gospel. That's silly. Always question everything. Test, test, test and see for yourself. I've run 5 different tire compounds and 4 different sizes this year on my little STX car, and I'm nowhere near through. My test data doesn't really match the "common wisdom". I'm not the know-it-all, but I'm a HUGE skeptic.

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Unread 12-22-2011, 07:47 PM
Fair!'s Avatar
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Default Re: LeMons 15 hour Enduro, ECR, Dec 12-18, 2011 - WDMS

continued from above





Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slowcrx View Post
*How STU is nothing but cheaters
hehe... yea, that's a LONG story.

My major problem with STU is the massive performance potential and forward traction discrepancies between the AWD turbo cars and the non-turbo 2WD cars there. Some cars can make an extra 100 whp with programming, others can't make 5% more. And the 245 vs 285 (used to be 265) tire bonus the 2WD cars get is more than negated by the ALL wheel drive capability of the rally cars.

Its kind of a joke. The should just officially state that the only cars in STU that need apply are boosted, and do away with the un-policeable "no boost" rule. That makes sense because that is what has happened already. There are no 2WD non-turbo cars competing at the naitonal level in STU. Period. Nobody has podium-ed in STU open in a non-rally car since 2006 (my car). That day is past. Time and again racers have continued to spent tens of thousands building 2WD cars for STU, and time and again they get punished at Nationals. Been there, done that.



The extra power achieved by the turbo cars in STU comes from air & fuel & spark changes... and boost. I suspect many racers don't even know they've altered the OEM boost, but how do you know if it was from "backpressure changes" or manipulating the boost tables? Nobody has a way of checking all of the code. No, not even your buddy the uber-tuner. And damn sure not the tech stewards. I've spoken to too many tuners that know how to hide everything, or that can set-up two tunes that are easily switchable. Its just the "reality of the situation". Too easy to do and get away with. You'd be foolish to bring a bone stock tune to STU on a turbo car. You'd lose badly.

The STAC knows this is a real problem, but chooses to ignore it for now. There hasn't been a single boost protest upheld in the history of SCCA Solo... EVER. The protests are always thrown out. They know that there is no way to effectively police altered boost in ST classes, and they don't. That is a mistake. I am not going to let up on this until they change this rule.

And mark my words - THEY WILL.

The SPAC similarly kept their head in the sand for a decade and a half on the boost issue, but finally threw up their hands and said "OK, boost is unlimited!" via a rules re-write, and then moved the AWD boost buggies into their own class (BSP), instead of letting them continue to beat up on ESP. They were so dominant in BSP that they just had to move ALL of the non-turbo cars out and create a new class for next year (the new CSP).

Again, "called it".

The STAC just needs to step-up and do the same. Long overdue. It is still the 800 # gorilla on the grid...




Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slowcrx View Post
*How DSP BMW's and the M54 suck
Ha! I will stand behind that - because the M54 does suck.

It has an unusually high rate of failures that are RPM related, due to a retarded-ass oil pump drive system and flaky OEM harmonic balancers that often fail at 50K miles or less. I have lots of data to prove this, and not just my own. The rear subframe structure is also a joke, of epic and "class action lawsuit" proportions. Again, lots of data to back this up. BMW is not infallable - no automaker is. They all have their Ford Mustang II/Pinto, Cadillac Cimmeron, or Chevy Chevette.

I have talked to lots of E46 M54 racers and they get all giddy when they can achieve 230 whp for under $20K in expenditure. That just... baffles me. I don't get it. There are so many other engines out there with radically better cost-to-performance ratios, that are also lighter, smaller, and more reliable. I still own an M54 car, but it now has a much more bullet-proof oil pump drive system (that cost many hundreds of dollars), and a new balancer. And I'll never let it even SEE anything north of 6000 rpm. What a turd.

Saying things that are obvious and backed up by lots of factual data, isn't "mean" or "unsportsmanlike". Its a factual statement. Pointing out the obvious. This M54 motor is not an award winning motor, but if its all you can use in your car due to class rules, you deal with it and make it as reliable as you can. I have for my TTD car. Some people just need to let up on their rigid devotion to weird platforms or marquees or turd engines like the BMW M54. I'll say it again - this is one of the worst engines BMW has ever produced.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slowcrx View Post
*How you assume the winning LeMons cars aren't truly $500
Yea, everybody else assumes it, loudly, and at the races. I'm not alone here, but maybe I'm just not afraid to say it on the internet? People cheat the costs in budget based racing. Get used to it. There's rampant cheating at other budget-based racing, including one series I just built for and won, but I've stayed out of that fight.

Even the LeMons series director says as much in the driver's meetings "This was one of those rare cars here that really IS a $500 car!", and they have a (poor) way of dealing with it - penalty laps. Again, rules made by one person tend to suck. ChumpCar has a much better set of rules in a competing crapcan endurance racing series.

That series and ChumpCar both have gotten VERY serious and competitive, but ChumpCar has the ultimate solution - a CLAIMER rule. If, after the race, the officials feel a certain car wasn't conforming to the rules, they can buy the car and auction it car off, right then and there. They flat give you $2500 cash and take your car, then hold the auction. You can even bid on it and buy it back. Sometimes it sells for less than $2500, and you pocket the difference. Bully for you! Sometimes it sells for more, and you lose money, or let the car go.

Makes you think twice about doing it again, too.

The ultimate budget saving rule is ALWAYS some sort of claimer rule. I've encouraged GRM to do the same for their $201X Challenge. Won't go further here about that, but it would solve some problems.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slowcrx View Post
*How Jay purposely douched up your black flag
Yea, theres a lot more history to Jay Lamm's douche-baggery than I shared, and it goes back to a previous race I've done (where we got f*cked by him), plus to MANY other instances where close friends of mine have been f*cked by this guy. Believe me, I am not alone in my dislike of Jam Lamm.

I won't be patronizing his racing series ever again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slowcrx View Post
Costas had way more invested in the ECR race weekend, went through the same issues yet somehow has the "keep swinging" attitude instead of bitching about event organizers, other drivers, etc.
Well, I'll let Costas speak for himself, but he has just also said publicly he is NEVER doing another LeMons race. I'll let you draw your own conclusion. He is swinging the bat again... in ChumpCar. Sans Jay Lamm. Costas and I only disagreed on some of the prep of the car, but not in our mutual dislike of certain aspects of the LeMons series/ownership.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slowcrx View Post
*How unfair the NASA TT classing structure is
Ha! As bad as "rules by committee" can be, oh my, rules dictators are SO MUCH WORSE! I'd take that SCCA committee any damn day!

The main problem there is that all NASA TT classes and rules are written by one person, who has a lot of grudges, biases, and open disdain for certain brands, competitors, and products. Who races in a certain car, with certain mods, in a certain class, and he PROTECTS these things vigilantly, including his own track records. He will throw out track records he doesn't like, for silly reasons. I have lots of examples from lots of friends/customers/rulings, but I am running long on time already. Given enough time Greg will hang himself.

I am not backing down from those statements anytime soon - they need to be said, and NASA TT desperately needs an impartial rules committee. More than one view.

And let me say this - I would ALSO be a terrible rules dictator as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slowcrx View Post
(I can link examples of all the above listed)
Oh, I have no doubt you can - I am not denying ANYthing you wrote. Yep, I said those things. And I believe those things.

And will keep saying those things. Maybe if I was more politically correct, or lazy, or blind, or sugar coated everything, or kissed everyone's ass (right or wrong), or stayed off of the internet I'd be more liked.

I wouldn't like me that way, though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slowcrx View Post
... It's never your fault, or "just one of those things". You cast blame and spread dribble most places you show up on the internet
Well, your version of dribble is my version of constructive criticism and member input. To-MAY-to, to-MA-to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slowcrx View Post
(I've been told you're a great guy in person and missed getting to meet you in the STX grid in Lincoln).
Most people that have a slight beef with me online might agree with you, after they've met me. Some don't like me n omatter what - some don't like me because someone told them not to like me.

I have a "list" of d-bags that I don't like, online or otherwise, and I'll tell them in person. I won't ever sell even a lug nut to this small list of people. This is a short list, but each person on there has some funny reasons why they are there. don't have to like everyone, you know?

But I'll bend over backwards for just about any friend, any racer or person in need. I'll stop and help people on the side of the road, give to charity discretely, whatever. I like to think I'm less douche-like than my online persona makes me seem. Maybe I'm self deluded.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slowcrx View Post
It's disappointing to see how your noise to signal ratio has tipped over the past couple of years.
Ha! I have ALWAYS been this way since first posting on e-mail lists in 1992, or on BBS forums the next year. I'm vocal, opinionated, and speak my mind. If anything I have spoken up LESS lately because my business, which you feel is being harmed by my loud mouth, has become so busy the last 2-3 years. I have less time to bemoan broken class rules because I'm spending so much time helping customers and designing our products. I still have an active race schedule (25+ events a year) but less time to go on SCCAForums and kick committee members in the sack. I regret not having more time to do that.

I've also had long calls with some rules makers, and agreed with what's going on, and backed off to help cool down situations that were brewing behind the scenes.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slowcrx View Post
I mean no disrespect or ill-intentions, just a heads up that more and more people within the southeast auto-x and road racing community are starting to recognize the evolution to douche canoe.
Well, I pretty much think you are calling me a douche bag in not so many words, but again, that's your right.

The southeast, eh? And the road race BMW community? Hmm, I think I get that. Influences. But look, I'm just as much of a pariah to certain folks in Texas and other regions, maybe more than your area.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slowcrx View Post
While I will continue to put Vorshlag plates on my BMWs and patronize your business, more and more of my peers are shying away based on your presence online.
Again, wish I could just let my products speak for themselves. Or that racing classes were perfect - or if I didn't race at all. Then I wouldn't feel the need to go online at all. But I'm a racer, and an engineer, and a manufacturer, and a dealer for certain products and I cannot stand people who lie about things, or try to paint my products in a bad light based on non-factual reasoning, or bogus testing, or third-hand opinion.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 1slowcrx View Post
I sincerely wish you the best of luck and hope you can right the ship.

Edit for signature:

Stephen I.
ST Civic #98
Again, thanks for your concern, and thanks for the signature. I think "the ship is moving along just fine - its a pretty big bow wave in front of this mofo right now, and I'm hanging onto the rail and sailing full steam ahead. Watching for ice bergs, and trying to steer around them, but definitely NOT slowing down.

Most of the examples you pointed out were form years ago... Some have only been said right here, on my own little forum. So you are coming HERE to read these criticisms (LeMons), but pointing out I crap all over the internet. Why is that? Just not sure what you are really trying to touch on here? There's a certain thread on bimmerforums that is chock full of nonsense and gibberish right now, and I'm staying mostly out of it. But there are some very dishonest people saying some extremely libelous things there that makes my blood boil. The motives of certain persons will come to light soon. The truth always comes out.

Who knows.

Thanks for the post - I will try to take it to heart. But I likely won't change.

Thanks,

Last edited by Fair!; 12-22-2011 at 08:26 PM.
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Unread 12-22-2011, 08:44 PM
turbotoddie turbotoddie is offline
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Default Re: LeMons 15 hour Enduro, ECR, Dec 12-18, 2011 - WDMS

To 1slowcrx,

Howdy, as Fair stated, he makes no bones about calling out what he feels is the truth at the risk of potential customers. Well, sometimes his delivery may not be politically correct, his intentions are right. As for his business, he has definitely supported races and racers beyond what I would expect from a business producing racing parts in this economy.

As for Jay Lamm, don't judge Fair until you have had to deal with his BS Lemons series and BS rule enforcement. In fact, it will be a cold day in hell that I ever participate in a jay lamm event. I was dumb enough to give him my money twice. First out of ignorance, second time out of stupidity!

As many that know me and Fair, we have had our disagreements but I think you should draw your own conclusions from somewhere other than the internet and other people's opinions. You will be better for it.

Todd Farris
SW Div Solo Steward
2011 CP Natl Champion
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