Go Back   Vorshlag Motorsports Forum > Vorshlag V8 Swap Talk > Engine Swap Discussions

Reply
Thread Tools
  #11  
Unread 11-04-2011, 11:32 AM
Fair!'s Avatar
Fair! Fair! is offline
I blame the internet
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,998
Default Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - BMW 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Project Update for Nov 4, 2011: We are one step closer to building the ultimate BMW E46 V8! Just a quick update, but it is an important milestone. In the week since my last update the guys in our shop have been working on the E46 Alpha car, between other projects. They have finished the motor mounts, with everything fully TIG welded by our fabricator Ryan, and the LS1/T56 drivetrain is securely in position.



The left picture above was pretty cool - we didn't stage that, I just looked up and noticed... "hmmm, that's 3 generations of BMWs with Vorshlag LS1 swaps lined up there". And in that same picture there's an E36 LS1 swap underway (black 1995 M3), and behind the Z3 is another E36 LS1 swap about to be kicked off (1992 325is). So we have... 5 LS1 swaps built or on-going in our shop at the moment. Kinda crazy.



Look how low that aluminum LS1 block sits in the chassis! And with 6 of the 8 cylinders located behind the front axle centerline, that's good for lower CG and better fore:aft weight balance than the long & tall straight BMW 6. That gave me an idea, and I took these pictures to show how different the LS1 motor length and installed location is compared to the stock M54 motor:



And fore:aft location of other Vorshlag V8 swaps, the E30 and E36/Z3 (can you see why I'm not a fan of E30 LS1 swaps?):



Its not easy to measure the Center of Gravity of a motor in a chassis, but in these two front shots you can see the outline of the heavy cast aluminum block/heads (ignoring the plastic intake manifolds and covers) of the LS1 and he M54 in the E46 chassis, and it gives you an idea of which drivetrain has the higher CG (M54):



Here are some close-ups of the motor mounts, which are easier to see with the heads off:



Once the prototype headers and driveshaft are finalized we will go back and make production fixtures for the finished motor mounts and trans crossmember, then we can start making those in production batches. The plan is to be at that point by December, unless the shop gets buried in customer fab/race prep/suspension work.

We located another LS1 starter to use for mock-up yesterday, and Ryan will attack the header fabrication next. There is one piece of tack-welded sheet metal on the driver's side (that forms the base of a heat shield around the ABS module) that will have to be removed to clear the full length headers, but we will make a new heat shield to go back in its place. We are NOT removing or relocating the ABS or brake booster components. Most of the handful of completed E46 LS1 swaps I've seen do away with the ABS completely, which I feel is a huge mistake, and detracts from one of the best parts of the BMW E46.



The E46 LS1 prototype full-length header construction will be a huge amount of fabrication work, but it always is painful on that first set. This is where our economies of scale come in: Since we plan to make these headers and kits in quantities more than 1, the typical high cost for one-off custom headers and mounts won't hit our E46 LS1 swap kit customers in the wallet.

We have all of the bends/collectors/flanges/supplies on-hand and I'll show an update as the prototype headers are coming together. Remember - we don't work on this car every day, but I am scheduling more fab time on it as we get freed up from other customer jobs. Once we have one set of headers built, they will be sent off to our header manufacturer for volume production.

More soon!

Last edited by Faerus; 11-04-2011 at 12:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Unread 12-23-2011, 08:58 PM
Fair!'s Avatar
Fair! Fair! is offline
I blame the internet
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,998
Default Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by R33GTR View Post
They aren't going to give this any priority until someone starts paying them.
Nah, its not like that at all.

Oiy, lemmie show you what we've done since the last update. I've been trying to make time to crop and edit these pics and do an update here for this car for the last 2-3 weeks.

I will skip starting the 3 day holiday weekend and miss dinner with my wife tonight just to give you guys an update on the E46 LS1. Gosh!













There, is anyone appeased?

We're actually further along than these pics show - these were snapped from 1-2 weeks ago. I need a full time "web update guy" to give me some back-up. We've been super busy, and I haven't had a lot of time to update all of our project threads. I've got 9 or 10 active project build threads going at once now and I'm juggling them on close to a dozen forums, and its all I can do to keep my other daily Vorshlag duties here up to date. I have one of my employees now tasked to try to take up the slack for my slow updates, so don't worry. As we continue to grow I will keep hiring more people to keep the "active on the internet" aspect of our business... active.

So where were we - oh yea, the passenger LSx header prototype is done and fully TIG welded at each joint (looks better than the picture above, as it has that missing bend added). Driver's side header... (lemmie go back in the shop and peek)... OK, it looks like it is 3/4 complete, in steel. The plastic mock-up is done, and clearances checked. We ran out short of 1-3/4" mandrel bends for that header on Monday, but Matt ordered more. With the holiday shipping mess they were probably delayed getting here. Thought they'd be here today... oh wait... OK I just walked around the entire warehouse area and shop again and I think the box with those bends did get here today. The guys in the shop were too busy doing a motor swap today to attack the rest of the driver's header. We were hit with several E36 LS1 orders this week and just shipped out 3 kits today, including some internationally, after a big batch of E36 parts came in from powder coat. Its just nuts around here right now, sorry guys. Plus we've got a ton of racing going on, and suspension development, and shock and camber plate sales.

Vorshlag is open all next week except Monday, and my super awesome fab guy Ryan that I hired back in October is working all week on the other header and then the collectors and other bits. There have been all sorts of things going back onto that E36 that were missing when we bought it, to try to make it a fully functional street car when its done. I've also picked up a good LS1 5.7L aluminum longblock block to have re/built up, and have a 6-spd for it, too.

We're moving right along on the E46 Alpha, considering the volume of new projects, turn-key LS1 swaps, and customer fabrication work I've thrown at my technicians and fab guy at our new shop.

Patience...

Last edited by Fair!; 12-23-2011 at 09:00 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Unread 12-24-2011, 07:45 AM
GaryK GaryK is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 11
Default Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Thanks for the update Terry. I'm sooo wanting to build an LS1 BMW right now. I think I finally found a good E36 for the swap, but I'm starting to think maybe I should do an E46 instead.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Unread 01-17-2012, 06:11 PM
xmbreezy xmbreezy is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1
Default Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Any update!? You guys are killing me! I plan on getting a 330ci by spring and doing the same thing. I currently have a 88' S10 Pickup LS1 swapped and I totally drooled when I found Vorshlag! Keep up the great work guys.

-Sincerely,
Nick
Future Customer
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Unread 01-17-2012, 06:15 PM
Fair!'s Avatar
Fair! Fair! is offline
I blame the internet
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,998
Default Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Quote:
Originally Posted by xmbreezy View Post
Any update!? You guys are killing me! I plan on getting a 330ci by spring and doing the same thing. I currently have a 88' S10 Pickup LS1 swapped and I totally drooled when I found Vorshlag! Keep up the great work guys.

-Sincerely,
Nick
Future Customer
Ha! You've got good timing. The E46 Alpha is being worked on right now at Vorshlag, and goes back up on a lift tomorrow for header collector completion. Then we're testing a bunch of newer OEM LSx exhaust manifolds in the car that a customer in California sent us to try (for CARB approved swaps - but don't get your hops up).

We've just had another batch of ten sets of E36 LSx headers built this past week so that means the E46 prototype headers are about to go into production verification. Lots has gone on since the last update - a couple more days from now and we'll post up some more pictures and details.

Thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Unread 01-30-2012, 02:03 PM
E46_LSLQ's Avatar
E46_LSLQ E46_LSLQ is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2
Default Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Terry,

The car's looking great. I'm really interested in the headers when you finish things up.

I'm sorry to be out of touch. We'd talked online when you were just completing the E36 LS1-- I'd followed that on the website a lot.

We did complete our 6.0L E46 wagon a little over a year ago. Motor's installed in a 323iT "Sport Touring" wagon-- I've always loved "sleeper" grocery-getters, so this one looks very vanilla, until you hear the exhaust when it fires up. We started with an LQ4 bottom end and installed '243 LS6 heads, Comp .568/.566 112LSA cam and Weiand Lingenfelter LS6 intake. PCM is the stock "Red/Blue" LS1/6 computer, but re-programmed for this cam set-up.

Issues we ran into:
1) For 'fit' reasons we concluded that the late-GTO pan, forward sump, was our best bet. I think we are mounted a hair forward from what your pics show. Using the T56, we ended up with the F-Body (rear) shifter location and it pops up in the exact right spot in the BMW. We did select our 323iT for already having a manual 5-speed in it-- -saved grief with clutch, master considerations.
2) We are running BOTH BMW computer (to keep CAN bus and gauges happy) and GM PCM (to run the engine and present an ODB-II port). ODB-II works great that way and would scan without Readiness or Error codes were we to have emissions testing here.
3) We used the M3 LSD diff to be on the safe side. I like the ratios a lot for this application-- loafs on the freeway, but still short enough to work with the T56's F-Body gearing
4) Cam has a nice lope, but will idle at 950. It pulls hard to redline at 6800, where we cut fuel off
5) Biggest issue we ran into was "cooling"--- We ended up buying the E46-M3 radiator, which is a drop-in. But, still had issues with airflow. Due to hood sealing, airflow is very constrained with the stock fan. We finally wired in a monster electric fan, which will keep heat in check even on a 120 day.

Net is that we really like the combination-- It was built to your #2 objective-- a daily driver that can be taken to the track.

Anyway, I stumbled back across your 330Ci thread and wanted to check back in. No threadjack here, but wanted to offer any thoughts on stuff we ran into. Would love to install your E46 headers when you get them wrapped up-- I'm sure we are power-limited (410-ish currently) by exhaust flow right now. We have Magnaflows on it, but did a custom hack on the manifolds. Long tubes would help a lot.

Best regards,
Tom
__________________

Last edited by E46_LSLQ; 01-30-2012 at 02:12 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Unread 01-30-2012, 08:56 PM
Fair!'s Avatar
Fair! Fair! is offline
I blame the internet
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,998
Default Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Tom

Thanks for sharing! Very good stuff there. That sounds a lot like how we're going so far, other than the oil pan we used.



I'm still tempted to try the non-M E46 "medium case" 188mm diff housing, but making one of these into an LSD ($2500-ish with a good diff) will cost more than buying a used 210mm E46 M3 diff ($750 or so). Problem is the E46 M3 diff has a unique subframe halfshafts, and all of the rest. So we're back to buying a pull-out subframe assembly brake to brake ($1500-2000-ish).



We'll do some looking and see if its worth doing this or... swapping in a Ford 8.8" aluminum IRS housing. That gives us a more affordable, stronger, lighter, differential housing with a near infinite number of gear ratios to choose from ($180/set for Ford Motorsport gear sets) and anything from stock clutch-type differentials to Wavetrac, Eaton, Torson, and more.



We'll so some looking for M3 assembly pullouts, run the numbers and see which option is the most affordable and has best gearing and differential options. The BMW tax is fairly brutal on some of these items, and in the end it might be better to make a new subframe to mount the 8.8" aluminum IRS center onto, with custom halfshafts to fit the E46.

Thanks again for your input!
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Unread 01-31-2012, 01:27 AM
wolrah wolrah is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 5
Default Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

As a former owner of a number of vehicles with Ford 8.8s, I'm entirely behind that idea. Those things are indestructible. Anything that holds up to me having too much fun with the happy pedal in vehicles as heavy as the Crown Vic and Thunderbird has to be plenty strong for these purposes.

Also, eliminating the BMW tax and avoiding the M tax on a major drivetrain component would be wonderful. I'm sure everyone who looks in to LSDs for E46s would be interested, V8 swap or not, if it can be done at a price competitive with the M3 rearend conversion.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Unread 02-01-2012, 07:25 PM
E46_LSLQ's Avatar
E46_LSLQ E46_LSLQ is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 2
Default Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Terry,

Thanks for reminding me... I'd almost put the pain of buying that M3 Diff-and-hardware behind me. I think they are carved from pure crystal unobtanium beneath a monastery between Munich and Salzburg. It's too bad, in the 3-series over the years BMW has offered up a lot of different ratios for their diffs... but only a handful that seem capable of handling lots and lots of power.

So, second that thought! A Ford 8.8 would be a wonderful alternative, especially as we're in a different range of gearing with some of these GM powerplants and gearboxes. I really, really like the 0.50 overdrive of the T-56, but to make best use of the powerband it would be nice to have the choice of ratios the 8.8 provides.

Have you thought about the radiator much? I've never gone back to try the stock one after we'd installed the M3 3-row radiator... but I think our cooling grief was as much about airflow and fan sizing as it was radiator capacity. I think the fan we finally used is well over 30A... another benefit of using a GM stock 145A truck alternator!

Please keep us posted!

Tom
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Unread 02-04-2012, 11:38 PM
Tennessee Steinmetz's Avatar
Tennessee Steinmetz Tennessee Steinmetz is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Hooterville, MO
Posts: 3
Default Re: Vorshlag E46 Alpha - 330Ci LSx Build Thread

Here is a gentleman in Germany that is devoted to hacking the I-BUS (which is the onboard entertainment network)...which is linked in a roundabout way to the CAN-BUS network via the IKE(???).

http://www.reslers.de/index.html

If they (the now defunct openbmw.org have been able to dissect...of which Herr Resler was a member) can figure out traffic on this BUS (which has packet structure with no distinct beginning or end...odd) and introduce packets/capture packets in the stream with out incident...and have it work, maybe it is worth contacting him about CAN-BUS interpolation? They may have tried communicating with the rest of the systems in trying to understand the I-BUS.

If he doesn't have knowledge of the CAN-BUS network for the "engine" side of things, maybe he knows someone that does? Just a thought...found the reading on some of this to be kinda interesting... But I do like to nerd out once in a while.


Also, does anyone have a link to a good technical write-up that describes DSC, what inputs it looks at, how it handles the info, and what it does with it to try and control the car? Does it apply braking to one/two/all wheels in a skid? Does it blip the throttle in an oversteer situation to bring the rear end back in? Does it cut the throttle back to limit horsepower in a low traction situation or does it cut fuel? Trying to understand this system to see what the possible ramifications might be in running two ECU's in parallel if the problem of running one can not be elegantly solved. Will DSC have to be "greyed-out" since the BMW DME is not able to control the new engine...or does it just have to control the throttle (which I think could be done without too much hassle...but I will need to research that one a little further...)?

I will now crawl back under my regularly scheduled rock.
__________________
If electricity comes from electrons, does morality come from morons?
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

 


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:51 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.