#21  
Unread 11-17-2009, 03:55 PM
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Default Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

Keep in mind I have no idea what they used for a redline. Knowing them it wasn't 7000.
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  #22  
Unread 11-17-2009, 05:59 PM
Miatamoto Miatamoto is offline
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Default Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

I'd definitely give OS Giken a call. Performance on all the cars I've read about is great (including TTC champ Ian) and I'm guessing the pricing will be better than many of the other options too.

Maitland is a OS Giken distributor.
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Unread 11-18-2009, 09:16 AM
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Default Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

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Originally Posted by Miatamoto View Post
I'd definitely give OS Giken a call. Performance on all the cars I've read about is great (including TTC champ Ian) and I'm guessing the pricing will be better than many of the other options too.

Maitland is a OS Giken distributor.
Well 'm pretty sure I'm going to get the diff built by Diffsonline, as I know the owner and they have a great reputation for building the best BMW setups. They sell Quaife, OS Giken, Kaaz and of course their own customized clutch style diffs. I didn't think much about the OS Giken until you brought this brand (and Ian's name) up again, then I remembered reading about all that in a GRM article...

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/articles/whats-diff/


Left: The test vehicle. Right: OS Giken differential is a hybrid unit, with both locking- and clutch-type technologies.

I just re-read the diff test that GRM did in early 2009 (linked above). The main diff choices are clutch, locker and gear style limited slip diffs (obviously nobody bothers with the viscous style):

Quote:
The clutch type uses friction discs and springs to preload the differential gears so they don’t spin as freely as they would in an open unit. As the axles try to move at differing speeds, the discs or clutches slide against each other, resisting this action. The result is a partially locked-together axle that still allows differential wheelspin, especially as the clutches wear.

A locker differential is activated and deactivated by the gas pedal: Under power, it locks the wheels together; when the driver lifts off the accelerator, the wheels are unlocked. These actions are accomplished by a series of gears and plates within the unit, and the result is much like an on/off switch. The unit is either locked or unlocked, which can create some instability as power is added in mid-corner. On the plus side, there is nothing to wear out and the units can lead long lives.

Gear differentials, like those marketed by Quaife or Torsen, use a series of parallel worm gears to distribute power to the wheel that has the most traction. The gear differential is typically more expensive than the other types, but it also has nothing to wear out or adjust. There is a downside, however: If one wheel is completely unloaded, the differential can act in the same manner as an open differential, thus making these units less than ideal for bumpier tracks and off-road use.

Finally, as with any attempt at categorizing the world, there are many variations of the three types—all different ways to skin the same cat. Some of the more popular aftermarket units are hybrids of the clutch and locker types. These units provide the benefit of solid lockup on hard acceleration, but the transition from locked to unlocked is generally smoothed out by a series of internal friction plates.
In their test (using a T3 prepped S2000), Ian Stewart liked the OS Giken the best - and was fastest in it. This was on a small-ish go-kart road course that GRM uses for a lot of its autocross testing, but is technically a road course. Ian is a Vorshlag/AST Tester so I'm going to get in touch with him and get his first hand opnion on how their LSD test is relevant to autocrossing in my "low power heavy car".

Hehehe....

I've only ever driven with clutch type or geared (Torsen) style diffs. Quaife has a great reputation but for autocross use I think a bit more locking potential is nice to have at low speeds, to aid rotation and corner exit traction. Again - I want to get this right the first time, if possible.

Mini-Update: The E46 harness bar is on the way. Its a brand new prototype unit built for Sparco, bought from the developer after Sparco didn't pick up this model, so its one of a kind (and still in bare steel). Not going to be here in time to get in with the batch of powder coating we're doing today (including McCall's 4-point Kirk competition bar for his E30!) but we've always got more batches of Mason steel braces coming that need powder coat. It looks like Brian has arm wrestled the AST boys into finishing the 4200s so those should be here just in time for the Nov 30th ECR event (AST Testers - sign up now!), so I'll use the harness bar there and pull it out afterward to get it coated.

Also have some Hawk HP+ and HPS pads coming (thanks Matt M!) and Mike @ RacingBrake is sending me some of their new house-brand pads to try out as well (once I remove/measure the pads on the car to determine which pad profile it has). So that's 3 sets of pads to use for initial testing.

This weekend I'm finally going to get the 330 on the lift and take a look around for anything that needs to be replaced or upgraded. At the very least I will replace the motor and trans mounts with our competition style units and slap in some RTAB Limiters. As with everything we add to this car we will take pictures and make better installaiton instructions for Vorshlag.com in the process.

Last edited by Fair!; 03-09-2010 at 10:40 AM.
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Unread 11-18-2009, 05:53 PM
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Default Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Miatamoto View Post
I'd definitely give OS Giken a call. Performance on all the cars I've read about is great (including TTC champ Ian) and I'm guessing the pricing will be better than many of the other options too.

Maitland is a OS Giken distributor.
I'm pretty sure Ian was fast because of the shocks not the diff.
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Unread 11-20-2009, 07:21 PM
murph murph is offline
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Default Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

Yeah I'm not sure you need to go 3.46 or 3.38, but I'd definitely like more than the 2.93 I have. Tough to say where that sweet spot is.

When I asked the road race folks about diffs they said they couldn't get the car to avoid unloading the inside rear enough to not cause problems for the Quaife. The OS Gilken looks like it might be a nice compromise, though.
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Unread 12-01-2009, 12:53 AM
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Default Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

I had planned a weekend thrash to get the E46 ready for the AST Track Day at ECR today, but several things conspired to squash those plans. One, I got too wrapped up in the $2010 E30 V8 project the two weeks before the track day and didn't do a thorough check of the 330. I have spent way too much time on that little car lately - cleaning the chassis/engine bay, messing with multiple motor test fits, doing some body mods, wheel mockups, flare mock-ups, trips to the junk yards, etc. So that put me behind on checking out the 330 for a track day - I only put the car on the lift and pulled a wheel for the first time this past Wednesday, and that's when I noticed the rear brakes...



Uh-oh. No rear pad material at all, and the rotors were toast. ECR is a brake intensive track, so the random AutoPartsChain brake pads would not do. I had already ordered new front race pads from RacingBrake.com, for both the 330 and for DaveB's 325i, but neglected to check the rears on my own car. Doh! Due to the holiday shipping constraints of last week my hastily placed order for new rear rotors and pads won't get here until... tomorrow.... the day after the AST track event. Damn it, I need to be stocking this stuff here at Vorshlag. In the end I was also out of a few other parts I needed for the suspension swap, but the AST 4200s did arrive on Saturday. They look SO nice... Oh well, poor planning gets all of us sometimes. I'll get the suspension on & aligned, and start bugging some members at the local tracks (MSR or ECR), and try to get on track with the 330 soon. Weather has been too nice lately - maybe December will be sunny and warm, too?


DaveB's 325i and my M3 @ ECR. I got to thrash around track in both of these today, but I sure wanted to drive the 330!

OK, so what has been done? The first little mod I did do to the 330 was a set of Vorshlag 75mm Competition Wheel Studs and lug nuts. I took the 330's wheels off and on to check the brakes, and after fiddling with the ridiculous wheel bolts to remount the stock wheels for 10 minutes, I tossed the bolts right into the trash. It took no time to install the studs; I just don't have the patience for freagin' wheel bolts.


6 minutes to install all 20 studs... time & money well spent

As you can see above, I also test fit the 18x10" D-Force LTW5 wheels onto the car. This was with a set of (relatively tall) 265/35/18 A032 R compounds (we had these from the EVO X and I've been racing my E36 M3 on these wheels and tires the past 2 months, including all day today at ECR). The rears worked great with no spacer - just bolted right on and they have gobs of room. The front needs more camber and a ~8mm spacer. I'll retest the wheels on the front after the AST struts and Vorshlag plates are installed. It might be tight on the 285mm tire, but if I have to flare the fronts, so be it.

More soon...
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Unread 12-16-2009, 08:39 PM
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Default Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

Update: OK last week was completely nuts. Not only did we get absolutely buried in orders, we had to prep 3 cars for a track day (last one of the year), two of which had never been on track ever, for last Saturday at Eagles Canyon Raceway. This was the final chance for 2009 to hit this track in the 330. I was already regretting not bringing it out to the AST test day the week before (I took the E36 M3 instead), to get some (slow) baseline testing in the E46 with the OEM suspension and tires, but it would have been miserable like that.


The 4200s I used have these same 4000 series revisions. That's my 4200 strut at right

So we were stuck waiting on some parts for the camber plates until 8 pm Friday, the night before the track day. We got the AST 4200s (latest revisions) onto the car plus our Vorshlag camber plates, Nylon motor mounts, trans mounts, and the 18x10" D-Force wheels (with our our spacers and studs). Added new (PBR) rear rotors and some temporary PBR Metal Master pads, changed the oil to Mobile1, and the manual trans fluid to Redline MTL. Some gorilla over-torqued the oil filter top so the filter didn't get swapped - oh well.

Everything went on well enough, but due to the delay on the anodized coating for the plates we didn't wrap up the 330 prep until after 11:30 pm, then we started changing all the pads, lines and fluid on Matt's 350Z, not finishing it up until 12:30 am. Long.... long day.


Didn't get a ton of pics on the front install, as we were severaly pressed for time

Oh, and I bought a 1 ton diesel Dodge MegaCab diesel, and picked up a trailer sometime during that same day, too, so I got to tow the 330 to the event Saturday. Loaded the car in the rain Sunday morning - woo. Good thing we got to tow to the event (100 miles away), though, as we had no time to align the car other than via my calibrated eyeball. A quick tweak to the toe and camber was as good as it got. Ended up tracking straight and true so I guess we got lucky.


Motor mounts were a b!tch to swap out - had to drop the K-member and raise the motor. Trans mounts took minutes.

We're a RacingBrake dealer at Vorshlag, and while learning about E46 brakes we're trying to help RB figure out some pads and models for the BMW market along the way. The sport package 330 has pretty damn big stock rotors: 13" diameter front and 12.8" rear. That was big for a Corvette during this same time period that this 330 came out (2001). The new rear rotors and pads are shown below.



The front subframe has this flat, formed sheet metal cover / structure that ties the front K-member together. Its kind of a sad joke, and was wadded up like a gum wrapper in several spots. Some previous owner probably ran over something and it tore it to bits, but the underside of the car looked unaffected. I noticed a tubular version on RealOEM, I think for the convertible? I'll investigate and probably purchase that. Thank goodness DSP allows update/backdates.


L: Pumping in the ~1.3 qts of MTL. R: Final front camber was roughly -4° front, -2.5° rear

The car had a set of nearly new BMW front pads & rotors and I found some "PBR Metal Master" pads and new PBR rotors for the rear, until we can find the correct RB 2-piece rotor and pad solution. We tried one RB ET500 front pad profile that wasn't quite right, and ran out of time to get the proper front pads in time. Surprisingly it stopped better than I expected with these OEM style pads, never fading once, and I was into the ABS on many corners (I LFB into nearly all corners, braking pretty deep and late). I was shocked at how well this car stops with this very stock pad/rotor setup - much better than the E36 M3 did a week earlier, at the same track, and on the exact same wheels/tires. My M3 has 2-piece Euro M3 front rotors (12.5" dia) and Hawk HP+ pads front and back. So I can say with confidence that the 330 has better brakes than an E36 M3.

The 18x10" D-Force wheels fit great in front, with zero fender rolling and a 10mm spacer. It was sitting up about 1/4" higher than I like, but I wanted to be safe up front on the first outing and didn't have time for the usual corner balance and thorough road testing. The rear wheel used no wheel spacer and looked like an even better fit than the front, but it rubbed on the outside at full cornering load, once the track dried out, so I took it easy and only did 4 sessions. Rear needed a tick more ride height, some fender rolling and a firmer RTAB setup (didn't have time to do anything about that yet) and it should work fine with the 265s. We'll take a look at everything once I get 285s on the car.



The track was cold, wet and nasty all morning - but the car still handled like a dream, right out of the box. It always went where I pointed it, soaking up the many bumps at ECR, and made for easily controlled drifts when pushed past 10/10ths. I have started off with the stock swaybars and 600# front, 750# rear spring rates (our Hyperco/GTR package), which felt great. Since it was wet all morning, I kept all of the adjustments at full soft, to keep everything from being twitchy.

I pushed the crap out of the car and had a blast on track in each session, only needing to let a couple of the fast instructors by. This was a CTS-V and KenO's E46 M3, both of which had more power, so the 330 couldn't match their pace on the straights. For the most part I had a clear track and got a good feel for the car. The 330 definitely needs more power, and I hope the new header and exhaust I'll build behind that will help. When the track dried the lack of a real LSD diff was very apparent. That needs to be remedied SOON.


I took pictures between sessions but didn't get a picture of my car on track all day

Since the track event I've ordered new front control arms, a header, new cam sensor and harness (throwing a code), and some other bits and pieces. Still looking at race shifters, but the switch to our Nylon motor mounts and 95A trans mounts made a HUGE difference in shift feel already. I've got aluminum Mason braces for the front and rear that we'll install in the next week or so - just ran out of time before ECR.


Amy took the M3 to ECR that day; she had a blast driving the car

I borrowed Matt's new in-car vidcam setup and got one wet session on video, but its not too impressive since its raining the whole time. I might post it up later, for grins.

More soon...
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  #28  
Unread 12-22-2009, 12:32 PM
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Default Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

Have a question for you BMW gurus out there. Here are some pictures of the lower subframe "reinforcement plate" I mentioned in the post above. Its mangled a bit on one corner, and I cannot leave it alone. Its made of an easily bendable, formed section of thin sheet steel.


This is the stock unit that came on my 330Ci. Its a bit mangled

Looking on RealOEM at the various E46 offerings I have found these 3. I've checked several versions of 323, 325, 328 and 330 (all of the US models) in Sedan, Coupe, Wagon and Convertible and they all seem to show this one:


This is the unit shown on most non-M E46 models.


This is the E46 M3 version. It seems to be slightly similar, but has a different shape and a jacking point,
so its possibly made of a thicker plate material? Exact same price though



And then there's this mystery model....with the odd duck control arm, too?

So, does anyone recognize the tubular style shown in the last picture? Looks like it may be made up of aluminum and/or steel bits (notice the joints? That's not a welded piece) Its obviously some factory fitment for an E46, as it shows up as a potential sub-section under "Front Axle" for several E46 models, but on every variation that I look up it with it always says "No parts found matching your car."

If this wasn't available on a non-M in North America I'll just suck it up and get the basic replacement unit, shown at the top. DSP doesn't allow anything more than a 2-point lower subframe brace, so I'd stick with the formed sheetmetal 4 point brace that it came with. At least its light. :o Its not a huge area for improvement in any case, but I'm always looking for new things to test.

Thanks,
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  #29  
Unread 12-22-2009, 03:50 PM
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Default Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

One of the guys on bimmerforums figured it out...

Quote:
Originally Posted by murph1379 View Post
Here's the realoem page:



Looks like this was standard up to Feb 2001, then they went to the plate version.
My 330 was built in July 2001 so it has the newer style reinforcement plate. I might get the "old style" tubular brace from BMW (its only $107 retail) and test it against the cheesy sheet metal one on my car.

I'm about to put our 99 323i on the lift to see if it has this style, too...

Last edited by Fair!; 12-22-2009 at 03:53 PM.
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  #30  
Unread 12-22-2009, 05:47 PM
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Default Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

I just put the 1999 323i up on the lift and sure enough, the early E46 cars have that tubular brace.







It is indeed tubular and could possibly be stronger, but here's the rub: it only attaches with 4 bolts instead of the later version's 8 bolts.



Hmm... I'm going to have to think on this one.
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