Vorshlag BMW E46: Track Car Project

[Fair!]

Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

Why not keep it as a test car for your inevitable Vorshlag E46 LSX swap kit?

You're already going to have to pull the motor and replace it so might as well put something more interesting back in. You could sell the tranny and whatever go fast stuff you have to recoup some cash. Plus an LS1 + T56 is probably comparable to (if not cheaper than) another M54 and in the end you'd retain all of the development work you've put into this particular chassis so far.

Not sure how far into the deep end it would put you but an LSx E46 sounds like a great time trial car too.

Oh yes, a built LS1 + T56 would be much cheaper than building a competitive/to the limit DSP motor. And it would make 3x the power, on pump gas. And it would rev to 7500 effortlessly. And it would never break. And it would be FUN.

My wife is also suggesting the same thing you're saying: Push the car into the "storage bay" in our shop and put it under a car cover. Get caught up on our E30 LS1, her 2011 Mustang GT, and a customer E36 LS1 build we're doing. Then when we're caught up, pull the M54 and stick the LS1/T56 mock-up engine in the car and see if our any of our E36 LS1 bits fit. Make the kit for these that everyone seems to be asking for. The downside to using the E46 chassis is the CAN-BUS wiring that everything runs on, so getting the stock gauges and stuff to work would be a nightmare. I dunno... its a thought. Right now I have a retarded amount of money sitting in this non-running car.

Lots of other questions were asked and answered about this E46 over on Bimmerforums: http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum...1#post20546017

[Fair!]

Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

With that all said, two questions:

1. What sort of springs WERE you running on the DSP car? Been talking with my co-driver at Nationals (Mark Uhlmann) who drives a DSP 328is and we've had some spring talk and some more information would be beneficial to our theories.

2. Your comment about the E36 M3 intrigued me and as such, I'm planning a budget already :-D, but I had a quick question. In the thread about the car on the vorshlag forum, you had quoted something like 29xx lbs for the car. When talking with a few other people about STU M3s (Mike Simanyi, for example), there was talk that it should be able to get down to STX E36 numbers (mid-to-high 2700s). Where is that extra weight coming from?

Thanks, and again, good luck in the "off season" getting your next set of cars together for 2011.

1. You don't want to run the spring rates we did - they obviously were off the mark. The last set-up was 750#/in front, 900 #/in rear. It had very little lean under load, but we did zero data logging and I can't tell you what grip numbers it makes.

2. E36 M3 is a back marker in STU. Has been since 2007. Don't waste your time there. In DSP its still competitive, and I think if I were to go back in time I would have chosen the E36 chassis for a DSP car. Its a solid 200 pounds lighter in equal states of prep.

As for 2700 pound STU cars? Never happened. The early STU rules allowed A/C removal, and Simanyi's and others' '95 M3s (3.0L S50) were able to dip into the low 2830-2850 lb ranges. They never ran them with the A/C re-installed, as per the latest rules. Our '97 (heavier, traction control equipped, 3.2L S52) was down to 2950 with race seats and A/C, somewhat lighter exhaust (it was probably +30 over the max lightest set-up), on the larger 18x10" wheels.

The STX E36 cars are lighter still, by a good 50-75 pounds. The M3 has beefier halfshafts, trailing arms, etc.

[John in Houston]

Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

I'm sorry... but I think I would sell it:

1) too big / too heavy and no power without massive money investment
2) boring even in DSP trim


The LS1 idea is nice... but to have that cash sit dormant for a year or so is not what I would call a good decision. I'd find a JY motor, swap it and post it for sale. Put the original front fenders back on (I think you still have them) and put a faux carbon fiber graphic on the roof. Someone will pick it up. If you need to do an E46/LS1, you can find a cheap one at a later date.

JS Recommendation: Cut bait

Take the time and effort and:

1) Get the E30 up to snuff for next year
2) Run the E36 as-is in Time Trials (ST changes for 2012?)
3) Get the Mustang up to snuff for FS or ESP for 2011

Adding to this list for 2011 just doesn't make sense in my book.

If you find 1-3 don't fill your schedule, come get my M3 and put an LS1 in it

[Fair!]

Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

I'm sorry... but I think I would sell it:

1) too big / too heavy and no power without massive money investment
2) boring even in DSP trim


The LS1 idea is nice... but to have that cash sit dormant for a year or so is not what I would call a good decision. I'd find a JY motor, swap it and post it for sale. Put the original front fenders back on (I think you still have them) and put a faux carbon fiber graphic on the roof. Someone will pick it up. If you need to do an E46/LS1, you can find a cheap one at a later date.

JS Recommendation: Cut bait

Take the time and effort and:

1) Get the E30 up to snuff for next year
2) Run the E36 as-is in Time Trials (ST changes for 2012?)
3) Get the Mustang up to snuff for FS or ESP for 2011

Adding to this list for 2011 just doesn't make sense in my book.

If you find 1-3 don't fill your schedule, come get my M3 and put an LS1 in it

I agree with everything John has said here. Amy is pushing to keep it and do the LS1 thing, but it is a unnecessary pile of money sitting there depreciating by the day. Like anyone, I have limited amounts of time and energy, and dividing my time trying to complete two ambitious race car projects nearly killed me last year.

We have another employee here now, a seasoned mechanic, so we'll see how quickly he can tear through the E36 LS1 build we have going on.



But we'll likely just look for a JY M54 and just stick that in, get the car re-sprayed one color (the roof and front fenders are black, and the rear fenders need to be completely body worked), put the stock radio and seats back in, put a catalyst on the exhaust, slap on 1 of the 3 sets of 18x10s we have for this car (the 265 Yokohamas that won't die!), and sell it to someone as a track toy/street car.

I think if I stick AJ on it he could have it running again and ready for paint in a matter of 2-3 weeks. He's burning through the trailer interior panel replacement/interior repaint at a rapid clip!

I've seen E46 cars with blown motors sell for nothing. I'd rather get this one going again and move it, then buy someone else's heartache non-runner for pennies on the dollar and use that for an LS1 swap candidate.

We'll see...

[turbotoddie]

Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

+1. But Todd, does "also ran" mean the car or the driver in your case?

It's NEVER the driver!!!!! It is partly the car, mostly the car owner and crew chief. One doesn't have enough dollars and the other doesn't have any sense or motivation!

turbo

[Fair!]

Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

from another forum/same thread:

This thread has taken a disappointing turn. It is very unfortunate (to me at least) to read about a Supporting Vendor, who makes products for our community, call our cars "slow" and our motors "turds". How are people supposed to react to this rant? You are speaking to BMW enthusiasts and racers, and now one of our top (arguably) parts suppliers drops these comments on us, it just does not sit well with me.

I don't have any blind loyalty to any marquee. I mean, that should be pretty obvious, since one of our product lines is a kit to put a GM V8 into BMWs. That's not a disappointing turn - that's just more of the same.

And the truth is what it is: this M54 engine is a gutless turd of a motor that is unbelievably fragile, impossible to make substantially more powerful cost effectively, and literally eats itself if it exceeds its rather low factory redline. Making barely 200 whp with a race header/exhaust and no cat is slow. I have zero patience for low rpm, low performance, expensive yet fragile engines - so I'm not going to own an M54 powered car ever again.

They can put that on my tombstone, proudly - "Here lies Terry Fair, he hated M54 engines and only ever owned one!"


Its a beautiful car, but with an M54 underhood, I want nothing to do with it!

Blind brand loyalty isn't all that great either. While BMW makes some great products, just because it has a roundel on it doesn't make it the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Thank you. Exactly my point.

Look, BMW makes a great luxury sports car, but most of what we make and sell here at Vorshlag is about fixing what BMW got wrong for true sports car enthusiasts, autocrossers and track guys. Replacing squishy drivetrain mounts that are filled with goo and allow their top heavy/tall engines to flop around like a dead fish (and tear up all the lines and radiator necks and allow "money shifts"), replacing giant marshmallow rubber strut top mounts that allow a huge loss of camber under load, getting the lame wheel bolts off and going to real screw-in wheel studs, replacing skinny "staggered" wheel set-ups with much wider "square" set-ups, removing noodle OEM shocks and installing real monotube adjustable dampers with 3x-6x the spring rates, etc. Nothing we make is about adding bling or luxury - its about making a BMW more of the "ultimate driving machine" they claim it to be.

If us making non-BMW-like parts to replace factory BMW bits is wrong, I don't want to be right.


This is an image I don't ever want to see again in a car I own - missing oil pump nut or sheered shaft

So yea... I'm sick of the M54 engine in this otherwise nicely prepped E46 coupe here. We spent a lot of money and a good bit of time prepping this car (brakes, bushings, shocks, plates, bars, seats, roll bar, fenders, wheels, tires, shifter, exhaust, and on and on), and it turns and stops great, but its now worth almost nothing as it sits with yet another blown M54. Putting another $2500 M54 junkyard longblock in the car is going to improve it... how? The same ridiculously low power limits, lower RPM limits, and stupid expensive power upgrade path will still be there. I'm not dying to delve into an expensive "3 year build" to make a 250-ish whp DSP car.

But for $2500, guess what else we can buy?


Hello, remember me? My name is El es Jaun!

That why we're seriously considering doing what should have been done to this car from the beginning: LS1 + T56 swap. I get 3-4 calls every week asking for an E46 LS1 kit, so maybe this second M54 engine craptastrophy is a sign. That's what my wife is pushing me towards.

Maybe I should do another thread with a poll for the E46 here...

1. Fix
2. Sell
3. LS1

Thoughts?

[clifton23]

Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

e46 LS1 would be awesome.

DO IT!

[Redwood]

Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

E46 LS1 would be very cool, and and a good look to future if you want to continue doing swap kits. The E46 sold in much bigger numbers than the E36 and they are getting cheap enough to justify tossing the engine and putting in a V8. The bay is theoretically roomier than an E36, so that should help. I just think that going forward, more and more people will want to do an E46 LS1 swap than the rapidly aging E36.

[Hunter]

Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

I just think that going forward, more and more people will want to do an E46 LS1 swap than the rapidly aging E36.

If and When the motor goes in the M3, this is something I would really like to do.

[hancheyb]

Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

Y'all are missing the most important part of this swap. The E36 wasn't on a CAN bus, the E46 is. While fitment is easier, the wiring will be a nightmare unless you're willing to pay Vorshlag a fortune to R&D the solution. It can be done, but it won't be cheap.

[Hunter]

Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

Y'all are missing the most important part of this swap. The E36 wasn't on a CAN bus, the E46 is. While fitment is easier, the wiring will be a nightmare unless you're willing to pay Vorshlag a fortune to R&D the solution. It can be done, but it won't be cheap.

I have 4 redbulls and a wiring digram, I have seen them do more with less

kidding asside I assume it would mean having to build a custom BCM or at least a piggie back system of some sort

[altiain]

Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

Terry, why don't you ditch that fat, camberless, Macstrut monstrosity and find an RX8 with a blown motor? I'd LOVE to see an LS1 swap kit for that chassis. 300 pounds lighter, much better suspension geometry, don't have to hack/weld fenders to clear big wheels & tires, etc., etc.

[hancheyb]

Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

terry, why don't you ditch that fat, camberless, macstrut monstrosity and find an rx8 with a blown motor? I'd love to see an ls1 swap kit for that chassis. 300 pounds lighter, much better suspension geometry, don't have to hack/weld fenders to clear big wheels & tires, etc., etc.

+1 !

[Miatamoto]

Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

Terry, why don't you ditch that fat, camberless, Macstrut monstrosity and find an RX8 with a blown motor? I'd LOVE to see an LS1 swap kit for that chassis. 300 pounds lighter, much better suspension geometry, don't have to hack/weld fenders to clear big wheels & tires, etc., etc.

This man has a very good point! And I'll gladly co-drive the LS1 for autocross and NASA TT.

[modernbeat]

Re: Vorshlag BMW E46: DSP Auto-x Project

Terry, why don't you ditch that fat, camberless, Macstrut monstrosity and find an RX8 with a blown motor? I'd LOVE to see an LS1 swap kit for that chassis. 300 pounds lighter, much better suspension geometry, don't have to hack/weld fenders to clear big wheels & tires, etc., etc.

Because BMW cars have a semi-loyal following. And the few that love the car, but hate the engine (like Terry) might see the light and go LSx.

Meanwhile, there are already commercial kits and home-grown solutions to sticking an LSx into an FD RX7.