19" R compound tires = "not on the RADAR"

[Fair!]

Just spoke with Bruce Foss of Hoosier and got the bad news about availability of 19" R compound tires:

"Its not even on the RADAR".

Apparently the tooling to build 19" tires is prohibitively expensive, and even previous calls from Ford (the GT40 has 19's) and Dodge (the Viper Compeititon Coupe was originaly going to use 19" race tires) cannot get Hoosier to invest in 19" tire designs. Nor Khumo, Hancook, Goodyear, or anyone else that makes DOT race compound tires. :(

http://www.hoosiertire.com/rrtire.htm

18" looks like the stopping point of the seemingly endless growth in wheel diameters, at least for racing tires. Bruce told me to call Doug Gill (Solo Technical Manager) with the SCCA about an exception for the 2005 Corvette, which uses 19" rear wheels.

SCCA Solo2 Stock class category rules require racers to use stock width and diameter wheels, within 1/4" offset of stock. The 2005 Corvette uses 18x8.5 front and 19x10 rear wheels. Not allowing an exception to this rule will negate the use of all 2005 and newer Corvettes in Super Stock, which would be a loss. This also disallows the 2004+ Dodge Vipwer (which uses 19x13 rears) and numerous other models (2005 Ford GT, and several Porsche models).

Calling SCCA next.

[Tommy R]

Good luck with the SCCA. People lobbied and lobbied.......and lobbied.....when the C5 came out with 18" rears and the SCCA wouldn't budge.

It's a potentially very slippery slope if they make an exception and allow 18" rears on C6s. The only potential saving grace is if all the race tire manufacturers claim that they will not make 19's. In that case, you may eventually have a shot at them making a special allowance. Honestly, though, I wouldn't expect it anytime soon, maybe even years away.

The SCCA has never been known to act quickly.

Tommy

[McCall]

Good luck with the SCCA. People lobbied and lobbied.......and lobbied.....when the C5 came out with 18" rears and the SCCA wouldn't budge.

It's a potentially very slippery slope if they make an exception and allow 18" rears on C6s. The only potential saving grace is if all the race tire manufacturers claim that they will not make 19's. In that case, you may eventually have a shot at them making a special allowance. Honestly, though, I wouldn't expect it anytime soon, maybe even years away.

The SCCA has never been known to act quickly.

Tommy

but we should always build cars for their stupid rules.... sorry, just had to get that in there :wink:

In all seriousness, if ALL the tire manufactures claim they won't make 19" tires THIS year, SCCA has to give if they want to keep up with the core participants who buys the lastest and greatest car. Also, how is it a slippery slope when SCCA can easily define the rule? No 19" race tires. How hard is that to describe?

[hancheyb]

I emailed Mark Sipe. Let's see what he thinks. I know for a fact someone that is driving a new Viper Nationally in SS so there's got to be something going on...

[Tommy R]

In all seriousness, if ALL the tire manufactures claim they won't make 19" tires THIS year, SCCA has to give if they want to keep up with the core participants who buys the lastest and greatest car. Also, how is it a slippery slope when SCCA can easily define the rule? No 19" race tires. How hard is that to describe?

It's a slippery slope because if they say the C6 can use 18" race wheels/tires, then they'll have to say all cars with 19" wheels can use 18" wheels instead. Now what about a car that has the option of 18's and 19's. Can they mix and match now?

What about when a 19" race tire becomes available, but it's only, say, available in a 255/40? Well, that'll techincally fit on a 10" rim. So then what? Does the SCCA now disallow the 19" to 18" allowance after people have already invested big dollars in custom CCWs and Fikses for their C6s? What if a 19" R compound is made, but not by a "competitive" manufacturer? No 18" allowance should be made in that case. Because then you'd have to look at all the other scenarios where competitive sizes aren't made for a particular car. You can't single out one model or manufacturer.

Ultimately, I'm sure the SCCA believes (as I do) that the race tire manufacturers will come around, bite the bullet, and make 19" R compounds. They'll cost a fortune, but we're talking $45k-$100k cars here, so these people have money for expensive race tires. They'll likely recoup their tooling investment soon enough to justify the expense.

In the end, I don't know the right solution. I haven't spoken to the presidents of the tire manufacturers to see what their true plan is, but I'll say this. Eventually, someone will make R compounds, likely Pirelli or maybe Toyo. And Hoosier, Kumho, Avon, etc. will either follow suit or be left out.

But, if 19" race tires are made within 2 years from now and this allowance has been put into place, it could be an ugly situation for some. In the end, the decision to just allow a 19" to 18" substitution isn't as simple as it would initially appear to be.

Tommy

[McCall]

Easy. Here's the rule:

NO 19"s Race tires allowed until 4 different sizes are available. All those cars with stock or optional 19" wheels can now run 18"s as long as the width and offset do not exceed the 19" wheel.

That seems to clarify any situation I can think of. I mean, we are just talking about what, 5 cars here? M3, C6, Viper, GT, 911. If what the tire companies said to Fair is true and the cost analysis is not favorable to produce 19's tires in the forseeable future, why not adapt for the times? You can't force tires companies to make a product at a loss.

[McCall]

But, if 19" race tires are made within 2 years from now and this allowance has been put into place, it could be an ugly situation for some. In the end, the decision to just allow a 19" to 18" substitution isn't as simple as it would initially appear to be.

Tommy

Ugly Situation? How you figure? I don't understand how this is any different than when they change a car's class or change a displacement rule? I mean, look at Hanchey and BS. He spent all this money, like a C6 owner would buying expensive 18" race wheels, and now his car in stock form as been reclassed. Now, he has the choice of de-modding and going back to stock. Same thing would hold true if 19" race tires become availabe in two years.

Sh*t happens and if you make the choice to be dicated by the SCCA in building your car, then you live and die by their decisions. That's why I run what I brung. Let them sort it out...

[hancheyb]

At least you stick to your guns Jason!! Once again, Terry is getting a car that could win a class. We like winning things not just beating up on slow Porsches and BMWs!

[McCall]

At least you stick to your guns Jason!! Once again, Terry is getting a car that could win a class. We like winning things not just beating up on slow Porsches and BMWs!

Yea, like when I beat your slow BMW? Yep, I get nothing by doing that... :wink:

There are 525,600 minutes in a year. How many of those minutes do you spend autox vs. not? I prefer my car the be the way I WANT it that other 99.9% of the time.

[Tommy R]

NO 19"s Race tires allowed until 4 different sizes are available. All those cars with stock or optional 19" wheels can now run 18"s as long as the width and offset do not exceed the 19" wheel.

And when the four sizes offered still don't include the one you happen to want for your car, then what? Tough crap for the people whose car doesn't happen to have a "favorable" size......or manufacturer? And the people who shelled out money to pay for "temporary" 18's should now do what once 19's are made? Surely, they shouldn't be allowed any longer once 19's are available. So now they have to buy new rear wheels. In the end, that may be the lesser of the two evils, i.e. let people potentially buy two sets of rear wheels since that's better than not letting them run any R compounds since none are available in 19's.

In the case of the M3. Should they be allowed to run 19's since 18's are offered as a stock alternative? Can they mix/match?

That seems to clarify any situation I can think of. I mean, we are just talking about what, 5 cars here? M3, C6, Viper, GT, 911. If what the tire companies said to Fair is true and the cost analysis is not favorable to produce 19's tires in the forseeable future, why not adapt for the times? You can't force tires companies to make a product at a loss.

Of course, they wouldn't be "forced" to. No one has that power. They wouldn't do it if they'd lose money. In the end, though, 19's are getting more and more popular. In order to keep their market share, they'll eventually have to start making 19's....just like they did for 17's and then 18's.

Don't get me wrong. I want to see these cars run competitively in Solo II and other racing series, too! In the end, I blame the idiot auto makers for putting hoopty 19's and stupid staggered wheel diameters on their cars in the first place.

I still say it just ain't that easy. There's lots involved. And why the hell am I discussing this with someone who doesn't even care about SCCA rules??? ;)

Tommy

[Fair!]

Possible Solo2 rule exception for factory 19" wheels

this is the letter I sent to Doug Gill:

==========

Mr. Gill,

My name is Terry Fair and I am an autocrosser from Plano, Texas (SCCA member since 1990; most recent event was a BSP win at the 2004 Houston Nat'l Tour). I have recently ordered a 2005 Corvette Z51 specifically to run in SuperStock class Solo2 competition. My wife and I will be autocrossing it later this year and throughout 2005.

As you probably know, all 2005+ Corvettes have 18" front and 19" diameter rear wheels from the factory, but no one seems to currently make a 19" DOT R compound tire. After speaking with Bruce Foss of Hoosier Tire earlier today I now know that a 19" racing tire is "not even on the radar" for Hoosier, or even any of their competitors such as BFG, Khumo, Hancook, or Goodyear. There are a few current model sports car models using 19" wheels, including:

- 2004+ Dodge Viper, 19x13 rear wheel
- 2005 Corvette, 19x10 rear wheel
- 2005 Ford GT(40)
- various Porsche and Ferrari Models

Of those, only the Corvette has been a popular Stock category entry during the past several years. The 2005 Corvette's optional Z51 package (designed specifically for autocrossers and road racers) includes 13.5" dia front and 13" dia. rear brakes, which could both be cleared easily by 18" or even 17" wheels. The fact is that 19" wheels were used on the rear of the C6 Corvette simply for "styling", as with many or all other models with like sized wheels. There are neither safety nor engineering reasons to support the need for 19" diameter wheels on these cars, that I am aware of.

It seems that 18" wheels are legitimately needed to clear 14" diameter rotors on some of the newest sports and racing cars, but factory brake rotor sizes seem to have halted in growth, and with it the need to make competition tires in larger sizes. 18" seems to be where the racing world stopped, and with it options for Solo2 racers stuck with 19" factory wheels.

Bruce told me to contact you about a possible exception to the SCCA Solo2 Stock category rule that requires racers to use factory diameter wheels. Such as: allowing cars with 19" or larger factory wheels to use the same width and offset wheels as the original, but in an 18" diameter. Serious solo2 racers buy an extra set of wheels to race with, and the costs of 18" vs. 19" wheels is fairly similar. Most importantly: there are 18" R compound DOT tires available.

Not allowing an exception to this rule will negate the use of all 2005 and newer Corvettes in Super Stock, which would be a conspicuous loss. All owners of these new C6 models will be relegated to local (if available) "street tire" classes, or the sidelines of any National level event, for the foreseeable future. This will keep SuperStock to a one model class - the 2002-2004 Corvette Z06 - instead of possibly opening up the class to some compeititon from the new 2005 C6 Corvette, which has the same horsepower and weight (but 1" narrower front wheels).

I remember hearing about similar requests being made (and denied) in 1996 about the then new 1997 C5 Corvette and it's 18" rear wheels. Fortunately, several tire companies made DOT race tires for these cars within 12-18 months, and 18" race tires are fairly common today. Hoosier and other tire manufacturers knew about the vast number of cars coming with 18" wheels, and made that investment - one they seem to be avoiding today.

What is the SCCA's suggestion for owners of cars with 19" stock wheels? If you know of any tire manufacturer making a DOT legal R compound tire now or later this year, and preferably from a brand that is competitive, please let me know.

Racing my new Corvette on street tires is not an option. Waiting (possibly indefinitely) for available 19" R compound fitments is also less than ideal, as the 2006 Corvette Z06 will probably make the base 2005+ Corvettes uncompetitive - meaning, the narrow window of Stock class competitiveness for this 2005 Corvette could be missed completely.

Thank you,
Terry Fair
fair@pobox.com

[hancheyb]

At least you stick to your guns Jason!! Once again, Terry is getting a car that could win a class. We like winning things not just beating up on slow Porsches and BMWs!

Yea, like when I beat your slow BMW? Yep, I get nothing by doing that... :wink:

There are 525,600 minutes in a year. How many of those minutes do you spend autox vs. not? I prefer my car the be the way I WANT it that other 99.9% of the time.

Wait, so you WANT your car on blocks most of the time? :lol:

I don't call you beating me in a stock M Coupe with a 400+ hp car on a 90s 5 cone course (by 3/100s) a win. Come to a real autocross sometime during that .1% of the time when your car isn't on blocks! hehe :shock:

[hancheyb]

From Mark...

I hate to be blunt, but tell him not to bother. The SEB specifically addressed this with 19" last year. In fact they've probably addressed it every year ever since 16" came out. Stock vehicles must run the same width AND diameter wheels as supplied by the factory. The SEB will not allow an alternate diameter wheel in Stock, period. It's the responsibilty of the tire manufacturers to meet the market demands. As long as they meet the minimum number of sizes and diameters required by the rules it's out of our hands.

Mark

[Tommy R]

Well written letter, Terry. I think the best thing you did in there was to ask them what they suggest C6 owners do. Regarding a C6 Z06 package, I'm betting that car will never see a Stock classification. ASP, here it comes!

Pointing out the Z06 is the only car in SS won't matter, though. The SCCA seems perfectly content with situations like that. :?

Tommy

[McCall]

I don't call you beating me in a stock M Coupe with a 400+ hp car on a 90s 5 cone course (by 3/100s) a win. :shock:

Boy your memory sure is short. In case you don't remember, I was on 3+ year old miss matched tires, two were Khumos and two were some Firestone SZ50s. :roll:



And when the four sizes offered still don't include the one you happen to want for your car, then what? Tough crap for the people whose car doesn't happen to have a "favorable" size......or manufacturer?

Again, we are talking about FIVE cars here and one, the GT, probably will never see autox duty anyway.


And the people who shelled out money to pay for "temporary" 18's should now do what once 19's are made? Surely, they shouldn't be allowed any longer once 19's are available. So now they have to buy new rear wheels.

YES! Oh well, the rules changed, deal with it. That's seem to be STANDARD SCCA rule mentality day in and day out. Why should they be any different in their thinking here?

In the case of the M3. Should they be allowed to run 19's since 18's are offered as a stock alternative? Can they mix/match?

YES!!! See, these desicions would be much easier if I was making the rules. I see a wheel and/or tire size the same thing as say, a 1LE option or a certain spring rate. If the manufacture makes it, so be it. Good break to that particular car's owner.

Of course, they wouldn't be "forced" to. No one has that power. They wouldn't do it if they'd lose money. In the end, though, 19's are getting more and more popular. In order to keep their market share, they'll eventually have to start making 19's....just like they did for 17's and then 18's.


When will the diameters stop though? I mean, come on. Do you see 19" race tires on actual race cars? Something tells me the law of diminishing returns is in full effect tire diameter-wise at this point. Since that is case, the tire manufactures will probably say enough is enough.

I still say it just ain't that easy. There's lots involved. And why the hell am I discussing this with someone who doesn't even care about SCCA rules???


Agreed. Of course, this drives to the main point of WHY I got out of SCCA to begin with and only SM shows a gimmer of hope of something I might be interested in. Also, I'm major shorttiming it now so it's fun to discuss!! :wink:

[Fair!]

From Mark...

I hate to be blunt, but tell him not to bother. The SEB specifically addressed this with 19" last year. In fact they've probably addressed it every year ever since 16" came out. Stock vehicles must run the same width AND diameter wheels as supplied by the factory. The SEB will not allow an alternate diameter wheel in Stock, period. It's the responsibilty of the tire manufacturers to meet the market demands. As long as they meet the minimum number of sizes and diameters required by the rules it's out of our hands.

Mark

aw, crap!

Great! We'll soon have a $45,300 brand new Corvette that will be only good for driivng back and forth to work in... yea. :roll:

[Fair!]

I know for a fact someone that is driving a new Viper Nationally in SS so there's got to be something going on...

Any idea who this is and what they did to get around this rule???? :evil:

[Tommy R]

aw, crap!

Great! We'll soon have a $45,300 brand new Corvette that will be only good for driivng back and forth to work in... yea. :roll:

17x11's and 18x11's with 315/35's all around..........in ASP. :?
The good side? I bet it's competitive there with just good dampers and maybe more spring.

Tommy

[Tommy R]

Oh... And Mr. McCall. We'll just have to agree to disagree. ;)

Tommy

[hancheyb]

post this in the Stock section of sccaforums.com. DO NOT cross post it. I don't want a bunch of morons on the TAMSCC network. See if anyone knows of Vipers running next year.

[McCall]

From Mark...

I hate to be blunt, but tell him not to bother. The SEB specifically addressed this with 19" last year. In fact they've probably addressed it every year ever since 16" came out. Stock vehicles must run the same width AND diameter wheels as supplied by the factory. The SEB will not allow an alternate diameter wheel in Stock, period. It's the responsibilty of the tire manufacturers to meet the market demands. As long as they meet the minimum number of sizes and diameters required by the rules it's out of our hands.

Mark

BTW, nice letter Fair.

I would reply this way to the SEB:

I do agree that in the past that market demand would provide the nessassary pressure to create race compound tires. It made sense seeing the added performance benefits of the larger diameters. In today's day and age of tire diamater "bling", there has to be a point where sensibilities and overall competitiveness of tire diameters has to be considered. What happens when tire manfactures look at the market and DON'T see a demand? There's a point when the SEB needs to address this not keep brushing is aside.

[C3]

I'm just curious - if you're this serious about having a nationally competitive autocrosser, Fair, why don't you just eat the deposit on the C6 and buy Justin's low mile, nationally competitive Z06 for $15k less than a 'SSM Killa' C6? Tell Amy that you like the way she looks in red :wink:

[Nick]

Kumho's too busy developing F1 race tires to bother with 19's :D

http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html?http://f1.racing-live.com/en/headlines/news/detail/041022085103.shtml

(stolen from TAMSCC forum...)

[Fair!]

Just went to Khumo's US site and posted this:

My name is Terry Fair and I am an autocrosser from Plano, Texas. I have a 2005 Corvette Z51 on order that will be used for SCCA Solo2 Autocrossing. I would like to inquire about 19" tire sizes for your ECSTA V710 DOT Race tire model.

All 2005+ Corvettes have 18" front and 19" diameter rear wheels (18x8.5 and 19x10). No one that builds DOT legal R compound tires currently makes a 19" fitment, that I can find. A representative from Hoosier Tire Company told me they have no intention of building a 19" in the foreseeable future and I was curious about your company’s goals for these diameters.

There are numerous new sports car models using 19" wheels, including:

2004+ Dodge Viper, 19x13 rear wheel
2005 Corvette, 19x10 rear wheel.
2006 Ford GT(40)
Porsche models
Ferrari Models

If you have any intentions of building competition tires in 19" diameters, please le me know at the e-mail address below. The SCCA has brushed off all pleas for an exception to the Stock Category rule that states that all cars must race on the factory sized rims, sharing the exact diameter and width, and offset within 1/4". I do not have any competition tire options to race with on this car.

Thank you,
Terry Fair
fair@pobox.com

[Tommy R]

You should add the E46 M3 to your list.

Tommy

[Fair!]

Called Tire Rack... they sell Hoosier and other R compounds. "We have nothing for the rear... and have heard of nothing in compeitiotn sizes."

They have 3 different 285/35-19 options:

Pirelli PZero System Asimmetrico = $315
Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar EMT = $417
Continental ContiSportContact 2 = $298

Goodyear is making a 19!!! This means... maybe a "S" model from them???

Just sent them my "form letter" as well...

[Fair!]

You should add the E46 M3 to your list.

Tommy

Those are optional wheels, over the base 18" rubber (that all racers would logically choose). Pure pimpness. But I have added it to my form letter.

[Tommy R]

You should add the E46 M3 to your list.

Tommy

Those are optional wheels, over the base 18" rubber (that all racers would logically choose). Pure pimpness. But I have added it to my form letter.

Agreed, but it nonetheless adds impact to your list. It's available with 19's and that's what counts.

Tommy

[beavis]

Just spoke with Bruce Foss of Hoosier and got the bad news about availability of 19" R compound tires:

"Its not even on the RADAR".

Apparently the tooling to build 19" tires is prohibitively expensive, and even previous calls from Ford (the GT40 has 19's) and Dodge (the Viper Compeititon Coupe was originaly going to use 19" race tires) cannot get Hoosier to invest in 19" tire designs. Nor Khumo, Hancook, Goodyear, or anyone else that makes DOT race compound tires. :(



Maybe this is a stupid question, and someone knows the answer: what could be sooo different between the tooling for a 19" R compound and 19" street tire that a manufacturer already makes?! It seems kind of dumb for a tire manufacturer to buy tooling (and take it in the @$$) that can ONLY be used to make "street" tires, and is not adaptable to anything else. Maybe that's just me being fairly ignorant of the tire-making world, and using a little common sense.... :?

[Fair!]

Maybe this is a stupid question, and someone knows the answer: what could be sooo different between the tooling for a 19" R compound and 19" street tire that a manufacturer already makes?! It seems kind of dumb for a tire manufacturer to buy tooling (and take it in the @$$) that can ONLY be used to make "street" tires, and is not adaptable to anything else. Maybe that's just me being fairly ignorant of the tire-making world, and using a little common sense.... :?

There isn't much difference,you are right, but the Tire Companies that make and sell R compound DOT tires are few and far between:

Looking on TireRack I see that....

Hoosier (they make no 19" tires)
Khumo (they make no 19" tires)
Toyo (they make no 19" tires)
Yokohama (they make no 19" tires)
Avon (they make no 19" tires)

Goodyear makes some 19's, but I don't see any competition tiresfrom them listed anymore. Its been some years since they made any GS-CS competition tires. I sent them a letter anyway.


Schnikeys! I found it!!!!!

Pirelli PZero Corsa (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Pirelli&tireModel=PZero+Corsa) is avilable in 285-35-19 and has a 60 treadwear! Its a bargain at $339 each. :?: :!:

http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/pirelli/pi_pzero_corsa_ci2_l.jpg

Woohoo! We can now race Amy's car on the stock wheels using some expensive, uncompetitive, Italian R compounds!

Of the many 18" sizes, they do not have the factory 245/40/18 front... but they do offer these many sizes (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Spec.jsp?make=Pirelli&model=PZero+Corsa) in 18" that will work, including 255-35-18 and 265-35-18.

AWESOME. Not my first choice (or even in the top 5) but it beats using street tires. Now... we need to find some pimpy street wheels to buy so we can use the stockies for racing...

[Fair!]

Costas shot down the Pirellis - "they suck"

Khumo shot down 19" tire plans:

Terry, as far as I know, we have no plans of releasing a 19" V710. I know that early next year we are coming out with 10 new sizes in the V710, but no 19". I would check back in about 4 months, as these plans could be changed or new sizes added. Let me know if you have any other questions.

James Rees
Training Specialist
KUMHO Tire U.S.A., Inc.

Have given up on 19" tires for a while. Buying 2002-4 Z06 wheels and running 18x9.5F and 18x10.5" rear, for the time being... see that thread.